False Rape Accusations Revisited

[John_Mace]

@Bricker

Not in so many words. But Diogenes, to take one example, certainly argued as though the possibility were tremendously unlikely and not worthy of serious consideration as a possibility.

In the Durham case in particular, or in rape cases in general? It might help if you could provide some quotes.

[whole_bean]

@Bricker

. . . but for the lucky happenstance of saving the tape, the six men here would have been effectively punished by the judicial system regardless of how their criminal trials eventually turned out.

This is the other side of the coin that is the acquaintance or “date” rape scenario where a victim’s accusations against a by-all-appearances decent guy fall on deaf ears in a “he said, she said” contest.

Victims’ advocates have been very active in the past few decades with their “rapist down the hall” campaign. It’s worked, sometimes too well, and the victim/accuser is believed, despite the absence of any reliable physical evidence incriminating the accused and despite our justice system’s philosophy of “innocent until proven guilty.” (see Tawana Brawley, the rise of Nancy Grace, the Duke Lacrosse team scandal).

I can remember when I was first exposed to the victims’ advocates campaign (college – probably the same for most my age and younger). I also remember noting that, in an earnest effort to refrain from “blaming the victim,” folk associated with these groups would often avoid pointing to the victim’s dangerous conduct as something to be avoided, “a lesson to be learned.” *[Let me be clear, I understand that not every date rape is a product of being drunk and getting felt up while passed out and that’s not what I am suggesting. I understand there are many times where a victim has no control and no responsibility for her predicament. I am not addressing those instances.] * I always thought, well they’re right in a way, doing what “Jane” did (getting piss drunk at a stranger’s house with no good friends around) may not be illegal, but it’s certainly not wise. No excuse for the rape, but conduct to be avoided nonetheless. I dared not speak this though. I see it like this: you can look back and justify your “dangerous” conduct as well within your rights while attempting to deal with having been raped. Or you can be safe and leave it a hypothetical.

Now bringing it back to the OP: The guys would have been screwed without the tape. But, as has been noted, if she’s crazy enough to take on six dudes, she’s crazy enough to do anything. Avoid it because there are some things, some facts, our justice system just won’t ferret out. Bad shit happens to good folk all the time (the number one reason to oppose the death penalty, IMHO).

@Bricker

“Why would she lie?” .

Don’t you know she’s loco essa’

[John_Mace]

@Bricker

And I don’t agree I’m doing QUITE the same thing – I’m offering a thesis for debate. If, as you suggest, no one believes otherwise, then it should be a short debate.

Well, that was only one part of the debate. However, unless you either produce quotes from people that support that thesis, or retract it, then it will be a very long deabte because people will keep asking for evidence.

Is it offensive for some reason to state a proposition that no one disagrees with?

I didn’t say it was offensive, so I’m unsure why you’d ask that question.

[Bricker]

@John Mace

In the Durham case in particular, or in rape cases in general? It might help if you could provide some quotes.

Well, I’m not trying to debate Diogenes specifically here, JOhn. I’m trying to debate the proposition that “Why would she lie”? is an effective analytical tool in evaluating rape claims.

If you, and everyone else reading this, all agree that it is not, then we shall have a very short thread.

If you contend that it IS an effective analytical tool, then I have offered this case as an example of why it’s not, and it would fall to you to distinguish this case, by either suggesting that it’s an anomaly, or that it’s statistically insignificant, or whatever.

[Bricker]

@John Mace

Well, that was only one part of the debate. However, unless you either produce quotes from people that support that thesis, or retract it, then it will be a very long deabte because people will keep asking for evidence.

No. I offer a proposition for debate. My proposition is not: “Many people feel that this is an effective analytical tool.” If I said that, then, yes, evidence would be required.

I say simply that it’s not an effective or valid analytical tool. That’s my proposition. Agree? Good. We have nothing to debate. Disagree? Great - what’s your reasoning?

[John_Mace]

@Bricker

No. I offer a proposition for debate. My proposition is not: “Many people feel that this is an effective analytical tool.” If I said that, then, yes, evidence would be required.

You didn’t? What does this mean, then:

It’s often asked, “Why would a woman lie about such a thing?”

Who is asking that and how “often”?

[Anaamika]

@Bricker

Well, I’m not trying to debate Diogenes specifically here, JOhn. I’m trying to debate the proposition that “Why would she lie”? is an effective analytical tool in evaluating rape claims.

If you, and everyone else reading this, all agree that it is not, then we shall have a very short thread.

Well, count me in as one of the people who thinks it’s not an effective analytical tool. Just in case you were keeping score.

[psychloan]

I found the following with a quick search:

For defense purposes, the most effective rape myths are those that give the jury permission to be indifferent toward (or even resentful of) the complaining witness. FBI crime statistics suggest that false complaints are no more frequent in sexual assault than in any other crime, and this was borne out by my experience when I ran a special victims bureau. But rape myths warn jurors that there is a lurking population of disturbed or calculating women eager to “cry rape.”

The Charge of Rape, the Force of Myth (The Washington Post): The Zero 5.0laf ...

I would say that this commentator is dead wrong. Not only are there plenty of disturbed/calculating women looking to “cry rape,” there are prosecutors who will jump at the chance to prosecute a sketchy allegation for their own selfish purposes.

A lot of studies have been done showing that false accusations of rape are very common. And yet, there exist people simply won’t accept this.

[casdave]

The Times & The Sunday Times

This one faces jail in a report in todays newspapers, however, he assymetrical protection offered to accused and accuser needs reviewing.

This woman effectively used the fact that the man she had accused had no media protection, whilst she stood by in the shadows free to continue her harrassment.

Women such as this make it all the harder for real victims to come forward and to be believed.

[psychloan]

And here’s another quote I found:

Myth: Women “cry rape” to get back at a man for breaking up with her or to protect her reputation after she has consented to have sex. In other words, the myth goes, women lie about being raped.

Fact: The incidence of false reporting of rape is about 2 percent. This is about the same as that for false reporting of other felonies (Department of Social Services). Survivors of sexual assault are often traumatized again when they report the assault or rape since the process of making a police report itself can be very difficult. This re-victimization makes the likelihood of false reporting very minimal. It is far more likely that rape is very under-reported. Some experts estimate that only 1 in 10 rapes are ever reported.

[Bricker]

@John Mace

You didn’t? What does this mean, then:
Who is asking that and how “often”?

Good grief.

OK. I withdraw that sentence.

[psychloan]

And here’s some more quotes:

Legal Process
Myth: Many women “cry rape” to seek revenge on a lover or to protect their reputation.
Reality: False reporting is rare. A 2000 study by the Office of Victims of Crime found that 2-3% of all sexual assaults reported to law enforcement turn out to be false, the same rate as other types of violent crime. It is unlikely that a false report would get as far as criminal trial. Even a woman who recants may not have lied about being raped, but perhaps she is dealing with some aspect she finds particularly embarrassing or humiliating.

Here I would say that the “myth” is probably more accurate than the “reality.” Many men who have were convicted of rape have been exonerated years later by DNA. And the example of Mike Nifong (Durham) shows that an overzealous prosecutor can easily take an obviously false charge to trial.

Myth: It’s easy for a girl or woman to “cry” or charge rape, and hard to defend against it.
Reality: Rape is highly unreported, for many reasons. The reporting process itself can be long and emotionally difficult for a survivor. Often times, the victim has more to lose than to gain by reporting sexual assault. The victim may experience a second victimization by the criminal justice system, and by the community. A typical defense used is that the sex was consensual, which then brings her word against his. If a jury believes rape myths, it can be difficult to find the perpetrator guilty.

It may very well be that many date-rapists get away with it. But that doesn’t change the fact that a victim of a false accusation can be facing a bad situation.

Myth: “Real” sexual assault victims report the crime immediately to the police. If they do not report it, or delay in reporting it, it wasn’t really rape.
Reality: There are many reasons why a sexual assault victim may not report the assault to the police. It is not easy to talk about being sexually assaulted. Reasons for not reporting include the following: reliving the trauma, retaliation by the offender, not being believed, being blamed for the assault, media coverage, the responses of family and friends, or being revictimized as the case goes through the criminal justice system. The victim may also want to forget what happened, may not recognize what happened was sexual assault, or may be in shock. A victim is less likely to report a sexual assault by a friend or relative.

To my mind, a delay in reporting is a red flag. For example, the accuser in the Duke Lacrosse case apparently had plenty of opportunities to report the alleged crime and yet did not do so until she was about to be committed involuntarily.

[John_Mace]

@Bricker

Good grief.

OK. I withdraw that sentence.

I think we should now debate why you felt it necessary to say “good grief”.

Seriously, though, you explicitly offered that as the 2nd topic of debate:

@Bricker

The second:

It’s been said in threads here that touched on evaluating the veracity of rape accusations, “Why would she lie?” I offer this case an an example of a woman who has, so far as can be discerned, no real reason to lie, and yet obviously did. I thus contend that “Why would she lie?” is not a particularly valid rejoinder when discussing the veracity of rape allegations.

If you can’t be bothered with supporting your own assertion, don’t be surprised when you get called on it.

Good grief indeed!

[Der_Trihs]

Since we’re trading quotes : Link

@IPT Journal

The McDowell team studied 556 rape allegations. Of that total, 256 could not be conclusively verified as rape. That left 300 authenticated cases of which 220 were judged to be truthful and 80, or 27%, were judged as false. In his report Charles McDowell stated that extra rigor was applied to the investigation of potentially false allegations. To be considered false one or more of the following criteria had to be met: the victim unequivocally admitted to false allegation, indicated deception in a polygraph test, and provided a plausible recantation. Even by these strict standards, slightly more than one out of four rape charges were judged to be false.

The McDowell report has itself generated controversy even though, when rape is a frequent media topic, it is not widely known. Its calculations are no doubt problematic enough to raise serious questions. If, out of 556 rape allegations, 256 could not be conclusively verified as rape, then a large number, 46%, entered a gray area within which more than a few, if not all, of the accusations could have been authentic. If so, the 27% false allegation figure obtained from the remaining 300 cases could be badly skewed. Moreover, the study itself focused on a possibly non-representative population of military personnel.

The McDowell team did in fact address these questions in follow-up studies. They recruited independent reviewers who were given 25 criteria derived from the profiles of the women who openly admitted making a false allegation. If all three reviewers agreed that the rape allegation was false, it was then listed by that description. The result: 60% of the accusations were identified as false. McDowell also took his study outside the military by examining police files from a major midwestern and a southwestern city. He found that the finding of 60% held (Farrell, 1993, pp. 321-329).

That’s from a quick google; over the years I’ve heard numbers as high as 65% provably false ( with DNA tests ). Finding an unbiased site is . . . difficult.

As far as why a woman would lie, there are any number of possible reasons. Some extreme feminists look upon it as a virtue; I recall a Time article ( called something like “Are men really pigs ?” ) where some women being interviewed openly gloated about sending innocent men to prison. Then there’s the old “Why not ?” argument; usually the woman doesn’t pay any price at all for a false accusation, or only a small one.

[you_with_the_face]

@Bricker

Actually, that’s my point. The Durham discussions here left me with the impression that some posters (a) believed a valid data point was “why would someone lie about such a thing,” and (b) the Durham investigation was handled appropriately.

Funny you say this, because the Durham discussions, as you call ‘em, left me with a distinctly different set of impressions. The first one that comes to mind is that some people are so obsessed with false rape accusations that they are willing to believe just about any “data point” that casts an accuser in a negative light. Such as the accuser’s race, of all motherfreakin’ things.

Yeah, it’s hard to believe, I know. Wish it had been a hallucination. It wasn’t.

The second impression I walked away with is that statistics in the wrong hands is tantamount to placing a gun in the hands of a blind kid with ADD. Especially when those hands belong to a lawyer who doesn’t even have the common sense to realize that “data points” like race shouldn’t be factored in when assigning the credibility of a case.

[Kalhoun]

@Bricker

Not in so many words. But Diogenes, to take one example, certainly argued as though the possibility were tremendously unlikely and not worthy of serious consideration as a possibility.

I don’t think there’s anyone out there who thinks women won’t lie about rape. But so what? The only law I would change is that the accused persons’ names are sealed by the court until they are convicted. That goes for any crime, but particularly sex crimes, which in my opinion are more damaging to a person’s reputation than any other crime (including murder in most cases).

What are you suggesting we do as a society to protect women (even drunk women) from the crime of gang rape?

[Bricker]

@John Mace

I think we should now debate why you felt it necessary to say “good grief”.

Seriously, though, you explicitly offered that as the 2nd topic of debate:
If you can’t be bothered with supporting your own assertion, don’t be surprised when you get called on it.

Good grief indeed!

Excuse me, John, but the 2nd topic of debate I offered was: I thus contend that “Why would she lie?” is not a particularly valid rejoinder when discussing the veracity of rape allegations. That was the proposition.

[Bricker]

@Kalhoun

I don’t think there’s anyone out there who thinks women won’t lie about rape. But so what? The only law I would change is that the accused persons’ names are sealed by the court until they are convicted. That goes for any crime, but particularly sex crimes, which in my opinion are more damaging to a person’s reputation than any other crime (including murder in most cases).

That’s not a bad idea. Even if not “sealed byt the court” – perhaps, in the same way that newspapers voluntarily do not report the names of victims of sexual assault, we should expect newspapers to voluntarily withhold the names of the accused in such cases until conviction.

What are you suggesting we do as a society to protect women (even drunk women) from the crime of gang rape?

I think the existing safeguards are sufficient, as a general rule.

[Pazu]

@you with the face

[…]some people are so obsessed with false rape accusations that they are willing to believe just about any “data point” that casts an accuser in a negative light. Such as the accuser’s race, of all motherfreakin’ things.

I forget–was she red or maroon?

[John_Mace]

@Bricker

My question to the Board: what would have happened in this case without the tape?

I contend we need look no further than Durham, NC, for the answer to that question. If that tape hadn’t been saved, or if (as I gather Moonier thought) it showed only the sex acts and didn’t have her up-front planning of them and agreement to them) those six guys would be mortgaging their houses to pay for legal counsel and praying that a jury believed them.

To flesh out what I asked rather cryptically, above: Can we really take the Durham case as an example of what typically happens in rape cases? I say no. This case was a national media circus, was highly racially charged, and involved a White DA up for election in an area with a large Black poopulation. I contend that we have to look much further than this case to find out what would have happened had the tape not existed.