Family Law Help Needed -Re: Child Custody

I realize that the advice I recieve I take with a grain of salt, does not constitute any agreement between me, the Reader and the poster, isn’t binding etc.

My wife and I have been seperated for over one and a half now. My 8 year-old son is currently living her. We are still married on paper and no one has actual custody on paper.

I have been planning a trip to Cleveland for about two to three months now. Before I even started planning I had asked her if it would be OK to take him on the yearly trip up there. I took him last year with no problem from her and figured it would be OK now. She said yes. I have bought the tickets and have everything set up. I have kept my estranged wife updated on the details. We were supposed to leave Wednesday morning. Everthing was going fine until a few moments ago she called me up and informed my that he will not be traveling anywhere. That he was grounded. I implored her to let him go but she would not budge.

Am I stuck with her decision? Seeing as that I am a responsible father who always pays his child support on time even though there is no court order to pay, who picks him up whenever she lets me, which is only every other weekend, do I have no say so in his life decisions? Can any one help me out with some advice here?

I apologize if this post is incoherent and full of misspellings. I am so worked up now it isn’t funny. If any further info is needed please ask.

As far as I know (and I am not a lawyer) you are stuck with her decision until and unless you file for divorce or legal separation. The law will not intercede in disagreements over childrearing between parents in an intact marriage unless those disagreements lead to physical violence or amount to child endangerment or child abuse.

You can hire a lawyer, counselor, astrologer, whomever to mediate between you, but ultimately you two are coequal in making decisions about his care. The only way to change that is to file for divorce.

I’d see a lawyer if I were you. It’s possible that you may be approaching some deadlines that will lead to constructive abandonment or other results that might be detrimental to your interests.

I’m wondering why the kid is grounded. If it was for a truly bad offense, you might wanna back her up and tell the kid “sorry, you blew up the cat/took the car on a joyride/whatever, no trip for you.”

Even with the fact that I am paying child support and the only obstacle that is hampering me from seeing more of him is her?

So if I were to pick him up from school on Tuesday and not let her him have access to him could she call the police to take him out of my apartment? Could I take him out of state? Would I be arrested in either case?

I really don’t think that matters. This isn’t a pleasure trip. This is so that he can visit his family from out of state. Come Christmas time when she goes visits her family who live here in Florida do you think she will not go just because he misbehaved? And to answer your question, he did not put his laundry away in a timely fashion.

As a RDFWAPHCSOT (responsible divorced father who always pays his child support on time) been there, had that done to me. You’re screwed, move on. Whether you son actually did something egregious enough to warrant grounding and loss of a trip, or it’s an FU power play by her, or both, fussing about it at this point will gain you nothing but an ulcer.

Get divorced and get your custody arrangements worked out legally, and then you can have some purchase (though not as much as you think) in demanding this or that. Until then you are effectively powerless. Own this and move on.

Like Snoopy Fan I would wonder why the kid was grounded.

Amp, as I understand the law you can’t kidnap your child because you have lawful custody of him. The police will not intercede in a dispute between the two of you unless one of you is endangering the child or one of you is threatening the other with violence.

That said, you might get arrested anyway. It depends on what she says to the police and whether they demand to see a custody order. If you do get arrested, you’ll easily get off the charge, but you’ll still have been arrested.

My comments about seeing a lawyer are intended to warn you that there may be monsters lurking in the middle distance. They might not be there; I don’t remember enough family law to know, and your fact pattern might not fit the triggering rules. But I do know that there are rules for constructive abandonment. Seeing a lawyer is the best way to make sure you’re not going to run afoul of them, or anything else.

A quick consultation with a family law attorney shouldn’t cost you more than $200 or $300 and would answer all of your questions far more directly and clearly than anyone here can hope to do. I still call mine every so often, whenever I’m not crystal clear on what I should do in any given situation.

Thank you KellyM, and everyone else. I appreciate your advice.

And thanks for your words astro. Unfortunately being young and dumb means not being able to let it go and I’ll probably end up doing something stupid.

Oh, okay OP. I thought maybe this was just a vacation.

Yeah, that sucks :frowning: In that case I can see saying “okay, you’re still grounded but you have to go see Aunt Nellie so when you get back the grounding continues.” Family trips should take precedence, IMHO.

All kidding aside, doing something spur of the moment “stupid” like just taking the kid or getting in a shouting match with her, at this pre-divorce settlement stage could be used against you as a nail studded club, in future divorce and custody negotiations on ever so many levels. Don’t screw up your future custody rights by doing something impulsive. You have to think long term strategically on this issue.

In the absence of any legal agreement [order of separation or such, if they are used in your neck of the woods] you are stuck with her decision to exactly the same degree that you’d be stuck with it if you were happily married. You’re still equally the boy’s parent, but as always, there will probably be consequences if you decide to override.

Since those consequences depend on her, you should try to resolve it with her. Legally, you may be as entitled to pick up your son and drive to the airport, as she is to tell him to stay home (a punishment is binding on him, but not on you), but that’s almost certainly not the wisest course, either for you or the boy

Similarly, legal action on this matter (were it available) would probably not be best for him. If in your opinion, divorce is inevitable, then does it really serve any long term purpose to defer it? Sadly, the dynamics of such relationships rarely improve with time.

In agreeing with all of the commentary here, can I lay out a bottom line:

Get a lawyer and get on with the proceedings already.

Once custody is down on paper, these sorts of situations will no longer leave you without recourse. Until then, you’re hosed, she’s hosed and most importantly, your son is hosed. Don’t do that to him.

As others have said, you have an equal right to be with your son as your wife does. I disagree, however, that by taking your sons with you, you might be setting yourself up as the contentious parent. Rather, I contend that it would be your wife because,
as you said, you had already informed your wife that your son was going with you, and she had okayed it. You kept her updated, bought tickets, etc. Now, she saw fit to “ground” your son for something trivial. All well and good, but that’s not your problem. She seems like she is punishing both of you.

I would try to talk with her and see if there is something else that she would be amenable to re: kiddo’s punishment, but I would simply state that your plans have been finalized and that you’re not willing to change them at this late date.

One last thing… You are, after all, going to Cleveland. Hasn’t he been punished enough?

Have you tried talking to her calmly and rationally and informed her that as there is no court approved parenting plan in place you still have an equal say in determining what your son will and will not be allowed to do and that you have just as much right to custody of him at this point as she does? Remember, calm and rational are keywords here. You don’t want to turn this into a power struggle, but you do want to stand up for your rights as an equally responsible parent.

With all due respect Rysdad regardless of equal, pre-divorce custody rights, men have to step a lot more carefully than women in these situations, as an implusive action, even to the point of taking the kid and bolting, or causing some other kind of shitstorm over custody will be forgiven a lot more readily in the law’s and the court’s eyes if mom does it than dad. It’s not fair, but that’s reality.

In these pre-divorce situations mothers wield the big hammer of an institutional presumption of knowing and doing what is best for the child, and fathers are often seen as threatening bad guys. Grabbing a kid against the mother’s wishes, regardless of how petty, vindictive or irrational she is being, because you are “entitled to do so legally” is not a good real world plan for the long run.

Well, I don’t have much to add, other than if the kid is grounded then he wouldn’t be coming with me as one of the first games they learn to play is mother Vs father
:
These should be under $20 each or $10 ea used:
Amazon.com:
Joint Custody With a Jerk: Raising a Child With an Uncooperative Ex
by Julia A. Ross, Judy Corcoran (Contributor), Julie A. Ross, Ross Corcoran

The Child Custody Book: How to Protect Your Children and Win Your Case (Rebuilding Books)
by James W. Stewart, Terry Johnston, Judge James W. Stewart

Fathers’ Rights: Hard-Hitting & Fair Advice for Every Father Involved in a Custody Dispute
by Jeffery M. Leving, Kenneth A. Dachman, Jeffrey Leving, Jeffery M. Leving

Possibly, but not necessarily.

If it could be demonstrated that the trip was pre-planned, understood by both sides, paid for, etc., then I think that dad is perfectly justified in taking his son along. It’s not an instance of just grabbing him up and bolting, as it were. (Make sure to leave addresses and phone numbers if she doesn’t already have them.)

In this case in particular, I’d strongly advise dad to take his son along because, if and when there is a final dissolution, the precedent has already been established as to where the kid will live and who’s going to pay support to whom. Dad, in a sense, has nothing to lose. That is, unless the amount of support he’s paying now is significantly below the state guidelines and money is the primary consideration.

As it stands, he’s living as if he’s already been divorced. Like you said, the divorce laws are steeply slanted toward women, and he’s unlikely to obtain a better settlement than what he has now. That is unless the mom can be demonstrated to be "petty, vindictive or irrational " on a regular basis to the point of being detrimental to the kid.

So, he might as well take advantage of the situation as well as it stands now, because, in all liklihood, it ain’t gonna get no better.

Yeah, it’s a shitty world, I know. But, believe me, a divorce with the concurrent support/visitation (I hate that word) stipulations probably won’t be as favorable as the conditions that currently exist.

Will this be the straw that broke the camel’s back and force the issue into court? Maybe. Only Amp and his wife can tell. Is it worth exercising his rights as a father? It’s his call.

I’d say to be calm and rational, but firm. Besides, the kid should be able to see his relatives, too.