Famous works of art that you hate

Better in what way? I mean seriously, define “better” in this context. It takes longer to make, so that makes it better? It costs more, so that makes it better? It’s made by someone that a bunch of other people have decided is a “master”, so that makes it better? The purpose of the item in question is to be eaten, so how can it possibly be judged by any criteria outside of the realm of eating? And in the realm of eating, the only meaningful definition of “good” or “better” is what tastes good to an individual’s palette. So trying to claim that some food item is “better” than another, outside of the context of an individual’s personal tastes is meaningless.

Same with art. What definition of “better” can be applied, other than that which ultimately relies on an individual’s opinion?

Sure thing. And thar ain’t got know rules too fall er, either; its all jist free-form, due whatever ewe want.

Listen to me: Visual art has grammar, just like every language. You might not understand it, but it exists, and that’s what art students study. People like Thomas Kinkade, their work makes no sense, visually.

Some artists choose to break those rules deliberately, i.e., ee cummings, but there’s no comparing them with incompetent people who never understood the point in the first place.

Well the gourmet meal might be healthier.


:eek:

Good god!
My dope sub has yet again paid for itself.

Agree wholeheartedly. I could rant for days on this very subject. I think too, this provides some insight into why many people have issues with modern art.

You have, for example, a neo-renaissance style building, who’s beauty is fairly obvious to all who look at it and is designed using long established principles of style and design. It is then wrecked and replaced by some 70’s-ish brutalist monstrosity which is trying to totally reinvent what we think of as architecture. The casual observer thinks, “Hmmm this new building isn’t nearly as nice as the old one.” The architectural community, on the other hand, loves it and talks about its qualities in some sort of mumbo-jumbo type languange, while at the same time demeaning any attempts to create new buildings in the old-style. Then, lo and behold, 30 years later most sensible people realize that A. replacing the old building with the new piece of trash was near criminal; and B. for all the pretentious talk about the merits of the brutalist building anyone with two eyes could have told you that it was hideous and disfunctional the day it was built; and C. the principle of the old style made sense all along and we would have been much better off with the old building and if we really had to repalce it we would have been better off doing so with a building using the existing design principles.

Which brings me to modern art. Let me preface this by saying that I am not a student of art by any means. I happen to live near 2 great art museums (the Wadsworth Athaneum in Hartford, CT and the Yale Art Museum in New Haven, CT) which I patronize several times a year. The Wadsworth has many paintings from the Hudson River School, which to me is alot like that neo-renaissance building, its beauty and skill is pretty much self-apparent. On the other hand, in its modern art section, Yale has a snowshovel hanging on the wall. To me, this thing is as much good art as Brutalism is good architecture. I’m sure that the art community will list off its merits, but to me it just doesn’t pass the common sense test.

Please don’t construe this as an indictment of all modern art. I’ve seen many works by Picasso, Dali, and others which I adore. At the same time, while I appreciate thier technical skill, I can’t take the narrow religious subject matter of most early renaissance works. My critique is mostly directed against the power brokers/intelligensia in the art/architecture community who use a ludicriously abstract and metaphisical language and worldview to critique what makes a good work. I suspect they do this mostly to justify thier own positions and standing and to make themselves the ones who control access to art world both for the public and artists/architects. It is because of this we have aforementioned snowshovel, or the candy spilled on the floor like I saw in the Guggenheim, while someone like Wyeth who most people seem to really like, is one step removed from Satan in many critic’s eyes.

Was this meant to be a reply to what Roadfood wrote? Because I don’t see how it’s remotely applicable.

I don’t know if this was meant as a reply to what I wrote, but how can you possibly say that Kinkade’s work makes no sense visually? I don’t particularly care for Kinkade, but he paints houses and cottages in woodsy and garden settings. The perspective of the painting is good, it looks kinda realistic, the windows look like windows, the flowers look like flowers, the path looks like a dirt path . . . By what possible definition of anything does that “make no sense”??

Here’s something I posted almost four years ago, in a thread I started entitled I Hate that Mothefucking Cocksucker Thomas Kinkade & Refuse to Pretend Otherwise :
I so wish I could add a .jpg here, because I’d love to diagram how bad his work is. Tell you what, I’ll go to that buttmunch’s web page - here, let’s look at “Season Hideaway”, on the front page of www.thomaskinkade.com. I’ll try to stick to objective terms.

Start on the upper left, with the sky. I won’t rip on the sky on this one, it’s similar to a lot of good paintings and reminds me of something Parrish would do, soft pastels. I’ve seen sunsets like that. But now notice that it doesn’t really go with the rest of the painting - for some reason, he changes palettes dramatically, going from gentle pastels to garish high-contrast reds and purples. That’s a sign of amateurism - ones approach ought to encompass the whole piece, not switch abruptly and without reason. The point of a realistic painting is to represent a moment in time, so you wouldn’t see two disparate views simultaneously; if you’re doing something else, you’d best be really skilled to pull it off. In his work it’s just illogical.

Okay, about those reds and purples - have you ever looked at a real bush (vegetative, I mean). Foliage doesn’t go from bright to dark like that - or if it did, if that’s the approach he wanted to take, then why is the sky so gently painted? It’s incongruous, you wouldn’t see both things together. The leaves are badly painted, just slap slap slap with a fan brush - no treatment, no looking. Light bounces through shrubs, they’re not just bright at the top and black underneath.

Next let’s look at those rocks. Every one of them is exactly the same. In real life, two similar rocks spaced a foot apart would be treating that sunset differently - you’d see reflected light from the sky on the ones further from the viewer, and their contrast would be higher. The ones closer to the viewer would have a wider range of lights and shadows.

That’s how you describe space using color - you don’t just rely on perspective alone. At least, not in a painting where the sky is treated with such gentle care - if the point was just high contrasts, then the sky would need to be painted that way as well.

Looking at that building closeup, the stones appear to be wallpaper. They have no depth or texture that one would associate with stone, just a medium shade with a darker one underneath it, over and over. Read “Zen and the Art of Motorocycle Maintenance” if you don’t already know how different one brick looks from another. Now that’s not to say that every painting of a house has to have the bricks detailed in such a way - sometimes they’re even more vague in really good paintings. My problem with this one is that it’s half-assed; if you’re going to paint something realistically, indicating each stone separately, then for God’s sake look at the thing. The walls deserve at least as much care as the sky.

Now look at the roof - if I zoom in, I can see the area in the center, just above the window, very clearly. He’s painted the roof using about 4 shades of blue and thrown on a yellow highlight to represent a relationship with the light from the sunset. Again, a half-assed treatment. A roof’s colors don’t actually look like that - there would be relationships to the light from the window, to the vegetation, to the other areas of the building. And the light from the sunset would affect the roof in varied and interesting ways. Not a generic blue tone.

The problem w/Kinkade is he’s painting what people know a painting should look like - walls, roofs, trees, bushes, sky, water. Each of those elements is recognizable as such. But they don’t come together to create a painting, there’s no relationship between them. And that’s what makes a painting art (good art, that’s another issue).

If I were to draw your portrait as just eyeballs, nose, mouth, hair and jaw, without drawing the relationship between them, you would see it as a farce. Things would not be in the right place and you’d instantly say “that’s wrong”. But somehow, because he’s sticking to painting landscapes and because he’s a good talker, Kinkade’s been able to pull off this tomfoolery and call it art. It’s an insult to every person who loves art, every student of art, every aspiring artist, and every accomplished artist.

If you’d like to contrast Kinkade’s work against a supremely competent, living artist, check out Diane Canfield Bywaters. Her landscapes are gorgeous, and they make sense. She’s been the Artist-in-Residence at many of our country’s national parks.

I liked your post, theman1632 - it reminded me of my last visit to the National Galleries in Washington, D.C. The older building is full of lush images, plants, water – human elements. The newer building (which I made a beeline for, since I really like newer stuff) well, honestly, it was cold. Sterile. Unwelcoming. Too industrial for me, on that particular day. It was the first time I kind of “got” people’s complaint about modern art. It wasn’t done on a human scale, it was on an industrial scale. Kind of like they were making art for computers, instead of people. Which may be where we are now, I don’t know - a lot of artists do try to predict the future, I thought maybe that was what it’s supposed to add up to.

I read your whole posting, but I won’t quote the whole thing to save space.

Everything you said is simply one person’s opinion. If it’s shared by a lot of other people – in or out of the art world, so-called art expert or otherwise – that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still just some people’s opinions. I mean “they don’t come together” is purely subjective. To make that judgement, you’re applying what YOU feel is the “proper” way to make a painting, your judgement of whether it “comes together” or not. Other opinions may differ. What makes yours right and others wrong? There’s just no such thing as right and wrong in a purely subjective matter, and art is nothing if not purely subjective.

Right, and so therefore Picasso has also been able to pull off such tomfoolery, because looking at a lot of Picasso’s works, I’d instantly say “that’s wrong”.

Let’s just take one Picasso that I found randomly on the web: Pablo Picasso. Friendship.. Seems to fit your first sentence above. I can recognize that there are things that are (I assume) supposed to be faces and hands and bodies, but in your words “that’s wrong”. Everything’s so chunky; in the real world, real skin has subtle gradations of coloring and tone. And what’s with that blue? Did the guy fall chest first into a bucket of paint? What’s with all the fat black lines, no one I know looks like that.

Most of your critique of Kinkade seemed to be in the realm of “it’s not really realistic” (e.g. “have you ever looked at a real bush”, “the stones appear to be wallpaper”, “In real life, two similar rocks spaced a foot apart would be treating that sunset differently”). So how’s he different from Picasso? I know, I can hear you from here shouting something like, “How can you possibly compare a hack like Kinkade to a real artist like Picasso?” But that’s exactly the question I’m asking: What makes the unrealism of Kinkade hackish, and the unrealism of Picasso true art? Why is “Friendship” good art, and “Season Hideaway” a hack job? The answer is: nothing but a bunch of people’s opinions. There is no true, actual, objectlve difference between Kinkade’s work and Picasso’s, it’s just that the so-called art experts feel that Picasso is art, and Kinkade isn’t.

I’m pretty well convinced that most post-Structuralist “artists” are complete cynical frauds. I’m looking at you, Fred Sandback. You too, William Anastazi.

We had an exhibit called WallCeilingFloor, by Sandback, Anastazi, and Judd, come through the local museum recently. Fairly pathetic. Diehard defenders always tell me that their work plays with spatial concepts and perspective, as if that’s some enormous artistic breakthrough. Artists have been doing that for thousands of years.

Sorry, Fred. Your stuff is, in fact, just red yarn tacked onto a wall. Meh.

But you’re missing the point! The shadow of the yarn makes a pretty triangle on the wall! :wink:
I’ve always been singularly unimpressed by the Mona Lisa. Whoopty-doo, she’s smirking. Yay. I would be interested to see what it looks like under all that dirt and smoke, though. Too bad I never will.

Or perhaps those who have studied the field are presuming that, because they expended effort, they must have accomplished something? :wink:

Agreed, and this sort of elitist attitude is my principal gripe with the art community. I’m inclined to support (and have babbled at length about) Priceguy’s basis thesis that art is about aesthetic influence. It’s about communicating emotion, which should–at least in principle–be accessible to everyone.

I would submit that most people (particularly critics) speak of art in the wrong terms. They try to lump subjective and objective aspects together, and it causes needless confusion and argument.

I tend to assess art along two separate axes:

“Good” art <–> “Bad” art–This is the objective axis; it covers my assessment of the skill displayed by the artist, the techniques used, the materials chosen, and so forth. This is the part that requires some education to fully evaluate.

“Successful” art <–> “Failed” art–This is where it gets subjective, because any piece of art can fail with any individual experiencing it. “Successful” art is any work that elicits the desired emotional response from the audience, independent of any technical merit. That’s the theory, anyway. It is, of course, more difficult for a technically inept piece to succeed than it is for a well-crafted work of art. Nevertheless, a beautifully-crafted work can fail, and a crude one can succeed.

This distinction is, I think, more broadly accepted in music than in the visual arts. I’ve often heard the work of various performers described as “mechanical”, by which the listener means that the performer was technically proficient, but the music lacked any emotional impact.

To offer an example: I admire the technical proficiency and the innovativeness of Monet and Van Gogh. The paintings themselves, however, leave me cold. They do not spark any real emotional response in me, whether seen in print, in video, or in person. They are–to me–good, but failed, art. To you, they may be both good and successful, and that’s fine. We can separate the technical aspects of the work from the emotional aspects, and have a better discussion, rather than devolving into an argument and comparing the size of our virtual paintbrushes. :slight_smile:

Kinkaide is going for realism; Picasso is not. When Picasso did go for realism, it tended to look like this: http://www.nga.gov/images/noncol/fisherfs.jpg

Yes, Balance – in school we always talked about “success” v. “failure” in terms of what the student was trying to accomplish, rather than in terms of audience reaction. But it’s the same point you’re making.

Because the thing is, Roadfood, if all art is completely subjective, what on earth do you think art majors are doing all day? What’s being taught? Is there no difference between a student’s work at the beginning of the year and the end?

I was trying to critique Kinkade in concrete, objective terms because that’s how drawing and painting are taught, and I’ve always thought more people should have access to that manner of analysis. Those were not subjective observations; subjective criticism talks about “his cultural agenda”, or Hellish glow seen emanating from every closed window to every sealed-up cottage, clocktower, inn, horse barn, church, etc. All of Kinkade’s structures seem consumed from within by raging infernos. **

I described what makes his work incompetent. He claims to be THE “painter of light”. Well, he’s not. Light simply does not behave in the manner he describes. He’s got it going one way in one area, and another entirely elsewhere. It doesn’t make sense, and there’s nothing else about the piece to explain the incongruity.

I’ll say more about that Picasso later, but right off the bat, isn’t it obvious that the painting has the same treatment all over?

BTW, if you want to check out the artist who was previously given the title “Painter of Light” (and much more deservedly), look up Edward Hopper.

If it’s all subjective, if there’s no merit to be taught - then what’s the difference between William Huang singing “She Bang” and Frank Sinatra?

Or is the lack of any objective standards the sole burden of visual art? Are you arguing, Roadfood, that artists such as Picasso have deconstructed the meaning of art so thoroughly that it’s been rendered meaningless?

I’d reject that argument vis a vis Picasso in particular (because he is one of the true geniuses), but if you wanted to level the charge against more recent “reductionists” (for lack of a better term), I’d have to acknowledge that there’s a lot of truth to the argument.

Frankly, Kinkade himself is Exhibit A. The crap he does (“Sofa Paintings”) has been around for decades, at least. My grandma had it, my friends’ parents had it, every garage sale in the country has it. But that kind of thing used to be sold from the backs of trucks in random parking lots. He gave it respectability, with price tags to match, and people don’t know any better than to buy it. And I’m afraid it’s because high-profile “modern” art HAS moved too quickly for the masses, and a vacuum opened up.

** Perhaps as evidence, I so far I haven’t been able to find a visual analysis of his work. Nobody’s acknowledging the elephant in the room - I wish they would. If people would just really LOOK at his work, they’d see how bad it is.

Open your wallet. See those little green pieces of paper? No intrinsic value whatsoever! You can give them to people in exchange for food and other necessities only because most people are of the **opinion ** that they’re worth something.

Most things we deal with on a day-to-day basis – money, traffic laws, marriage – exist only because most people agree that they exist. If people were to change their minds … poof, it all vanishes. Social reality, all of it, is a construct.

Art’s like that. There’s good and bad art, just as surely as there’s real and counterfeit money.

fessie, pardon me if I’m misreading you here, but if someone expresses a preference for Kinkaide over Picasso, is it your argument that that person is objectively wrong in his preference?

I guess if their preference was based on a statement that Kinkade’s a better artist, I would (and will) argue that they’re wrong.

If it’s a preference based on their own emotional response to the work, I sure can’t argue with that.

I *can * question their emotional capacity and maturity though, and I assure you that I will, if only internally. :wink:

To me, that means that he is the better artist - at least as that person is concerned. What good is technical skill if you can’t provoke some sort of emotional response in your audience? Of course, that technical skill will make you more likely to provoke an emotional response in more people: I don’t mean to imply at all that skill is meaningless. But “good” versus “bad” art is subjective, in that every individual is going to have a different criteria for what makes one work good, and another work bad, and no one person’s criteria is inherently superior to any others.