I’m just back from a packed showing directly across from FBI HQ in D.C., so if I ‘vanish’ in the next week or so there’s why. 
Nice post, MWK, I agree with your overview.
Specifically, it is going to be interesting how history will treat this “documentary”… it has all the potential to become a piece of American history. Guess we’ll see how the public reacts to it.
Some of the things the American soldiers say… sheesh. They need to make a mandatory course in boot camp " What NOT to say to Michael f*ing Moore while ON DUTY"
I, for one, appreciate hearing from the film’s attendees, and very much doubt the concept of “spoiler” can apply, however remotely. Already know: George Bush, in the library, with the revolver, case closed. But it is cool to hear impressions and reactions, 'cause this is as close as I’m gonna get. After thirty pages of Stupid White Men my mind went blank and numb. Just being right doesn’t make you interesting.
But I’d like to hear more. Anybody else?
Well, I won’t be seeing it, what with the no theaters in a hundred miles showing it and all. Must be the strong, independent, think-for-yourself spirit embodied by the Pubbie totalitarian theocracy. Maybe Netflix will ignore the Pubbies and carry it when it comes out on DVD.
I also caught a midnight showing and am not entirely sure how I feel about the film. As someone who’s followed the whole situation pretty closely the past couple of years, there wasn’t much in the film that I didn’t already know, but it’s nice to see it all together and presented well with a good mixture of humor and seriousness. Maybe those less familiar with the goings-on will get more out of it. Surprisingly, I think the movie takes it (relatively) easy on Bush; while there are obviously a number of Bush administration criticisms made, there are many more that could have been added or are given short shrift. I guess it’s a case of focusing on making a few points versus a laundry list, but I would have preferred a bit more laundry list. As others have noted, there’s relatively little Michael and, thankfully, the over-the-top snarkiness he occasionally indulges in. Some of the highlights that did stand out to me:
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Prince Bandar(?), Saudi ambassador, on Larry King describing meeting Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan; Osama was very thankful to Bandar for hooking the mujahideen up with the Americans to fight the Russians
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Representative after representative presenting petitions in the Senate on voter disenfranchisement needing one Senator to sign on; not one did
Overall, a good if tinted lens to view the important events of the past few years that most people should see.
I also caught a midnight showing and am not entirely sure how I feel about the film. As someone who’s followed the whole situation pretty closely the past couple of years, there wasn’t much in the film that I didn’t already know, but it’s nice to see it all together and presented well with a good mixture of humor and seriousness. Maybe those less familiar with the goings-on will get more out of it. Surprisingly, I think the movie takes it (relatively) easy on Bush; while there are obviously a number of Bush administration criticisms made, there are many more that could have been added or are given short shrift. I guess it’s a case of focusing on making a few points versus a laundry list, but I would have preferred a bit more laundry list. As others have noted, there’s relatively little Michael and, thankfully, the over-the-top snarkiness he occasionally indulges in. Some of the highlights that did stand out to me:
-
Prince Bandar(?), Saudi ambassador, on Larry King describing meeting Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan; Osama was very thankful to Bandar for hooking the mujahideen up with the Americans to fight the Russians
-
Representative after representative presenting petitions in the Senate on voter disenfranchisement needing one Senator to sign on; not one did
Overall, a good if tinted lens to view the important events of the past few years that most people should see.
Here in Bexley, Ohio I caught a matinee showing today at a small, three screen neighborhood artsy type theater (It’s other two features were Control Room and Super Size Me. The theatre didn’t open until 11:30 and the line behind me stretched down the block towards the corner. After the movie was over, as I left from watching the full credits, the line was now formed inside the theater, through the lobby, down the street and around the corner! The theater ushers described it as “totally crazy.” I know for a fact that the 7 o’clock screening was completely sold out before noon, and that ticket sales over the weekend were being pre-sold-- and selling fast.
Concerning the movie: it is a documentary in the loosest sense of the word. It is also an effective piece of propaganda, with all the negative and positive connotations implied by that term, but despite what you’ve heard, it’s not Goebbelesque at all. There are cheap shots aplenty for the current administration, which is to be expected of Moore – but I must say, I admire his restraint. There are shots and images that are extraordinarily compelling both for artistic effect and graphic brutality and raw emotion. The last time I cried at a movie was when I was twelve and E.T. died. I got unexpectedly emotionally involved and teary-eyed at this one, watching poor Mrs. Lipscomb so eloquently talk about her dead son the soldier and her 180-turn supporting the current administration.
There are other aspects worth discussing: the manipulation of the Florida voter counts, Fox News’ declaring Florida for Bush, the protest by those brave congressional members of the house and how not ONE SINGLE SENATE member would open the doors for debate by signing draft; Al Gore’s having to preside over that himself; Bush’s foundering during his first eight months in office, his incredible vacation time — estimated by Moore to be 42% of his first eight months in office. (Hell, I’m a schoolteacher currently on summer vacation and I couldn’t believe how much time off he took!) The many, many details of the Bush family ties with the Saud family through the Carlyle Group and other investment practices – including shoring up GW Bush’s failed Texas oil enterprises while GHW Bush was CIA director, and later, president. GW Bush says it best, summarizing all the accidental privilege he’s earned: “I can get ahold of my dad anytime, day or night. Access is power.”
Factually, this seems to be Moore’s tightest film to date, with not even the editing practices that got him criticized in the past – like out of sequence speeches and quotes presented as one comment, for instance. (There are out of sequence montages, but you can tell that’s what Moore meant to do.) It’s wonderful to see how open he is about presenting the evidence he has gathered – like a 2000 copy of Presdient Bush’s service record, contrasted with the one released this year (and the Saud connection revealed there), all the archival footage, the unedited pre-interview and post interview prepping of political figures – all used to excellent effect. When the movie was over, the audience I was with applauded, cheered and boed Bush for the full length of the credits.
This movie will likely polarize the Democratic base both in terms of donating and getting out the vote. It will likely have no effect on the apathetic voter. It’ll be interesting to see what Republicans have to say about this movie in the coming days; however, if they’re smart they’ll keep quiet until Spider-Man opens Wednesday. Which is a goddamned shame, because this movie deserves to be seen and debated by many.
Artistically speaking, as an “Cannes award winning” film, I wasn’t terribly impressed. Camerawork was standard documentary fare… editing was nothing special (I spent a year studying film editing at the Academy of Art, so I have some experience in the field), though more aligned to a op-ed than documentary (especially the interweaving of speeches and saying “Al Qaeda” “Iraq” and such - done more to make a point than anythign else). Lots of use of “pop” (as opposed to composed) music.
Since it won the award, it wasn’t for artistic merit or furthering the field of documentaries. Absolutely nothing groundbreaking. Maybe because it got a point across so well. Or maybe because they liked that point so much.
For the record, I also agree that he took it relatively easy on Bush.
I think the Pubbies are going to have a bear to wrastle’ with.
I just got back from a packed theater, which applauded when the credits rolled at the end. I think the White House is gravely underestimating the power of one film, if only to galvanize the Democrats to turn out in record numbers in November. To that end, I think it can play a significant role in defeating the Bush machine.
But besides the damning evidence of the relationship between Saudi oil interests, the Bin Ladens and the Bushes, after watching this movie, I left feeling much less afraid of terrorism and the manufactured fear that has gripped the nation for the past 2+ years. Yes, there are bad people who may commit violent acts against Americans. But the hysteria that has been fabricated by this president and his henchmen, soley to manipulate the American people and maintain his grip on power, rivals that of the Red Scare of the 1950’s, and is out of all proportion to the actually threat from terrorists. This is, in it self, terrrorism; made even worse when it is inflicted on trusting citizens who elected George Bush to guard their liberty. This president has betrayed that trust for the most venal of reasons; for money, and for power, and to perpetuate the gulf between those who have both, and those who have neither.
I am looking forward to the box office stats on Monday morning; I think the Bushistas are going to wake up to the irresistable force of an inflamed electorate looking for someone to vent their displeasure on. The Bush campaign has seen its high water mark; Cheney is going to have something to really cuss about in the coming months, when he sees his empire slipping out of his grasp. Cheers to you Michael Moore; if my 10 bucks enables you to make another film like this one, I consider it money well spent.
Brutus seems to have basically argued himself out of a point without realizing it. If making WMD is so simple as he makes it out with equipment so commonplace as to include whatever they could pull together in Iraq as evidence… then why should anyone care about Iraq in particular? There’s more of that stuff in far more suspicious situations in other places all over the world.
There were no long lines at the theater here in Nashville. That’s because all of the shows for opening day were sold out by around noon. (I had used Fandango for the first time the day before.) Here, too, there was cheering and applause.
The film is very entertaining – the fastest two hours on film that I’ve seen. At times it is hilariously funny, with Wolfowitz winning the gross-out award.
There were also moments of breathless silence and pain. And blatant war profiteering.
Christopher Hitchens said in his review that Michael Moore said that Saddam never threatened any American. And Hitchens then illustrates how that claim is invalid. My understanding was that Michael Moore said that Saddam had never threatened America. I would appreciate someone listening for this when you see the movie and letting me know which is correct.
Now that the movie is out, I hope that we can begin to address the issues presented in this film.
How were you able to see the film before it was released in theaters? What part or parts of the film made you think he was presenting himself as selfless? Objective? (snort!) A Defender of freedom?
To be honest, Hail Ants, I don’t think you had seen the film at all when you made those comments about how MM presents himself in the film.
Starving Artist, with all respect, I think you owe it to yourself to do a little reading on both sides of major political issues and to stay informed on recent developments. It really doesn’t take that much time. Take a look at Simon X’s post and links. This information is fairly common knowledge now.
I saw the midnight showing in New York, where it’s amusing to note that many of the theatres showing it put it on two screens. It’s amazing when the current blockbuster is a documentary, I’m sure that’s never happened before.
The movie was wonderful. I already knew most of the facts there. most, but not all. I personally was surprised by how incredibly slimy the Marine recruiters were. The best was when they asked a guy if he thought of joining. he said he thought of it, but he has a wife and children. The response? “Well, that’s all the more reason to go!”
The most effective thing in the movie was the showing of the war’s casualities. All of the maimed Iraqi’s, the burnt children, the disabled vets, the devastated American family of a soldier killed. These are things we all know logically that happen, but the emotional impact here is intense.
Another great moment was watching the Bush read “My Pet Goat” for five minutes after he knew America was under attack. It was an effective way to show Bush’s stupidity, in fact so effective that I almost felt sorry for the guy.
I had read Hitchen’s article beforehand. Although I knew Hitchen’s arguments were weak beforehand, after watching the movie, it was obvious Hitchens didn’t have a clue. He spent so much time complaining about how Moore wanted it both ways - not to invade Iraq, then to have as many troops as possible to invade. Not only is that argument logically invalid, besides being just plain nonsense, Moore never in the movie said we needed more troops in Iraq. He said that about Afghanistan. Other of Hitchen’s points were equally ridiculous, but that’s a different post.
He said, if I recall correctly:
“… [Iraq] never threatened America, never murdered an American…”
(By “he” I mean Moore)
Zoe…and SimonX, eludidator, et al. I am aware of you just said, Zoe. The post that got everyone snapping at my heels was one in which I was answering a hypothetical (how do WMD get shipped or smuggled out of a heavily surveilled county?) with ways in which it might hypothetically be done. In other words, I was answering a hypothetical with a hypothetical. Mobile labs are indeed doable, regardless of the discredited labs you are all referring to, hence my response as one of the ways in which this hypothetical smuggling could be accomplished.
This was the first film by Michael Moore that I’ve seen. The film didn’t strike me as being terribly spun-up, not enough to stop it from raising plenty of important questions. I feel the first 20 minutes or so of the movie presents some of the most damaging questions against Bush. Though I’ve heard most of them before, having all of them sequenced together was effective at giving them real weight and indicating that these alledged connections tended to go unnoticed at large for the last 3 ½ years or more. Certainly, the media has made little hay out of it.
The extent to which it focuses on the decades during which the Bushes have been so deeply involved with the bin Ladens for so many years proved interesting. So was the extent to how much the Bushes have personally profited from the Saudi’s, and the reciprocal influence the Kingdom has gained. And of course, Moore then points out the many interactions between the two families after 9/11. There was also the film’s estimate that the Saudi’s ownership of / investment in America is upwards of 6 or 7 percent of our GNP. While I question those figures, still, assuming that figure is lower would many here dispute that the Saudi’s are heavily invested in us? And if they decided to put that kind of money elsewhere, such as in Euros, isn’t it likely that they could cause plenty of havoc as Moore suggested?
It was respectful of Moore to only run the audio of 9/11 without showing the footage of planes flying into the World Trade Center as would be expected by most such documentaries on the subject.
Also, the scene at the beginning where not one Democratic Senator would cast the single required vote from the Senate to, as I understood it, open procedural debates on Al Gore being denied the Presidency was disgusting to say the least. It seems the Dems simply gave up the fight. Footage of Gore presiding in the Senate over the end of his own run at the Presidency, despite the support of many Representatives from the House, was pitiful. I’m sure, as intended, it smacked of something conspiratorial or of the Democrats finding themselves in a situation where they had allowed themselves to be neutralized. Could someone explain to me what that was all about?
It’s no wonder Gore didn’t run in 2004; his anger and humiliation must still rub him raw over that event. F**k the Dems for not standing up for one of their own. Again it reminds me how much there is rotten in Washington.
Oh.
I’m not an expert by any means, but, it seems to me that the successful methods practiced by drug smugglers would be preferrable. IIRC, they leave their labs behind and concentrate on just smuggling their product. It may be that the smuggling of illicit bio-weapons would be better served by this model of just transporting the product than by the model you suggest where the labs as well are transported.
Or not.
Like I said, I’ve never tried to smuggle either myself.
Maybe someone could dig up a citation?
Don’t be silly, Simon. Cocaine production is tricky and difficult, involving such flammables as ether. Producing sarin and VX nerve agents requires only a few Mason jars from the kitchen, and perhaps my grandmother’s old pressure cooker, used to make preserves.
(Which, I can attest, needs to be closely watched. But that’s another story…)
I still wonder though, Starving Artist, how you see the Admin’s use of testimony from a known fabricator to make the case for war. Do you see it as Dr. Kay described it, a damning lack of due diligence, or do you see it as evidence of dishonest manipulation of facts? Incompetence or Mendacity?
What have you decided?
I just returned from seeing a matinee showing of the film. The theater was half full, which for a matinee showing at this particular theater was surprising to me. There was applause at the end of the film, but otherwise people watched the film generally silently.
This movie is outstanding. I strongly encourage everyone to see it. It is impossible, I would imagine, to sit through this film and not be moved. Moore effectively lets others’ own words and acts tell the story.
I think the second portion of the film, which details the long history of links between the Bushes, Bush associates (including the guy who was suspended with Bush at the same time during his stint as a pilot) and the Saudi’s, including the Bin Ladens, effectively sets the context for the degree to which business interests and profiteering intersect with American foreign policy and engagement in the present war. Moore presents interviews from business conventions later in the film, allowing the interviewees themselves to describe the hostilities and danger by saying “Things are going to be good, well, er um, good for business, bad for the people involved.” (I am paraphrasing that quote from memory).
I thought it was particularly effective to have the sequence where Moore is talking to the author of “House of Bush, House of Saud,” IIRC, while standing on the sidewalk outside the Saudi Embassy, and a member of the Secret Service rolls up to “ascertain” what he is doing there.
The footage from Iraq is a must-see, both the pre-war (from the month the war was started) footage of Iraqis enjoying normal everyday celebrations and activities, and the footage that puts faces and words to what we might otherwise rationalize as “collateral damage.”
Some soldiers reveal their own callousness by discussing the CD’s they like to play in their armored vehicles during missions, singing lyrics that particularly sting when you have in mind the impact of their actions. Many other soldiers discuss their concerns and feelings regarding the overall mission, or the effect that killing others has on one’s own soul. It’s certainly hard to see images and interview of soldiers with amputated limbs, thinking of how they are so glossed over in the calculus of the war’s impact.
The bottom line is that you never forget who is benefiting from the war, who sold it to us, and who is paying for it.
An awesome film.