Fat Acceptance Movement

Great Debates
61

This is the sort of thing that turns a lot of people off to the whole movement, I’d guess. At its best it’s pure sophistry. But, more likely, it’s just self-deception.

Almost anyone who’s ever had fluctuations in their own weight, or knows even the basics about nutrition or biology can see that overeating and lack of exercise cause weight gain. Yes, that doesn’t mean that every fat person overeats or fails to exercise enough, but on average, and for the majority, that is true.

It’s fantastically silly to think otherwise. I’ve run into friends who I hadn’t seen in a while who’d lost weight, and asked them about it. I’ve never had someone answer “Oh, I didn’t really change anything. I have exactly the same eating and activity patterns I always have.” They almost invariably mention that they’ve been more physically active and more wholesomely nourished.

I’ve seen the effect of insufficient exercise and a sedentary lifestyle in my own body. I weigh about 25 lbs. more than I’d like to (10 lbs into the “overweight” BMI category), and it’s a result of insufficient exercise and less-than-stellar eating habits over the past four years. I also know that I felt better, had more energy, and was more attractive when I weighed a bit less than I do now.

I agree that people should focus on being healthy and not on being thin. However, I find it hard to believe that there are really people much heavier than I am who feel that they are healthy. I used to be able to run a 6-minute mile, and then run another two (slightly slower). I used to be able to do 50 push-ups, and 20 pull-ups, and lift more than I can now. I used to ride my bike 50 miles a week and go to the gym 4 times and swim and dance and run. That was healthy. I’m trying to get back there.

One of the things that scares me the most about any kind of fat-acceptance thinking is that I’ll forget what it really feels like to be in good shape, to really feel healthy and active. People tend to adapt to their current lifestyles, and I fully believe that there are fat people who once were in better shape, but have convinced themselves that there’s no reason to strive for that again. And it’s not that they’re bad people, or that they’re in medical danger, it’s just that they’ve become complacent. And talking about how there’s no link between being fat and exercise or diet is just setting yourself up to feel good about bad decisions.

62

I agree… and again, I say that as someone who let himself go a while back and became considerably overweight (thought not morbidly obese).

I have a similar problem with people who take fat acceptance to mean, “If you don’t think that fat people are physically attractive, then you’re prejudiced and shallow!” BTW, at the risk of offending some people, I suspect that this is part of the motivation behind labelling large women as BBW (“Big, Beautiful Woman”). Obviously, I can’t claim to read people’s minds, but I can’t help but feel that this is a passive-aggressive way of saying, “Yeah, I’m very much overweight, but you had better think that I’m beautiful. If you don’t, you’re just shallow!”

Mind you, I have been attracted to women who were very much overweight – as well as one woman who was anorexically thin through no fault of her own. I’m not saying that overweight women – or even fat women – can’t be attractive. I do object, however, when people impose the notion that you had better not view their fat levels as an indication of physical attractiveness.

63

And I take it exactly the opposite way, as fat women’s way of saying “It doesn’t matter what you think.” I read it as fat women’s message to themselves - “you are beautiful, you are feminine, you are worthy of self-respect and love.” I don’t use the term for myself but I wouldn’t disparage anyone else’s right to use it.

64

I’m having a hard time imagining what sort of things you mean when you say reasonable and respectful social pressure. Could you elaborate, please?

65

I’m pretty certain women in Western societies already feel that social pressure. That’s kind of why many of the people who participate in these blogs are so hostile.

Probably the best thing about these blogs is that at least the writers (if not the commenters) tout the HAES lifestyle. I’m positive a solid portion of people who actually follow such a program are likely to lose weight, and most likely end up in a better place healthwise, even if they don’t end up looking like a (most likely photoshopped) bikini model.

66

I’m not sure I can define it precisely, but here are some thoughts:

  1. I think we should retain the idea that there is a healthy range of body weights (however measured) and that weights outside of that should be avoided if possible. I think it should be socially acceptable to support that norm, and not be considered politically incorrect, or some sort of “hate speech.”

  2. If an obese person goes to the doctor for a checkup, I think the doctor should encourage the person to try to lose weight (assuming that’s the doctor’s opinion) even if that might upset the patient. More generally, I think the health professions / media should continue to tout the benefits of staying at a healthy weight, and we should continue to take stock of the effect that increasing obesity has on health care costs, mortality rates, incidence of heart disease, etc.

  3. I think there ought to be limits on the extent to which businesses or the government should be expected to accomodate obesity. For instance, I periodically read articles about how business owners are taking steps to accomodate increasingly heavy shoppers – bigger seats, wider aisles, rearranging things so that people don’t have to walk as far or don’t encounter stairs, etc. I understand why they’re doing this and I don’t necessarily condemn it, but I wonder if it’s in our long-term interest to move toward a situation where there’s no negative feedback for being obese.

Of course, when I say “reasonable and respectful,” I mean that some sorts of “pressure” should not be applied – obese people should not be ridiculed, or socially ostracized, or portrayed as morally inferior, or, in my opinion, discriminated against in the workplace, unless physical fitness is relevant to the job.

I agree, but in the U.S., I sometimes feel that we’re drifting toward an attitude – maybe not consciously, but through acclimation – that “fat is the new normal.”

67

That could very well be the case. Like I said, it’s difficult to tell without being a mind-reader. I guess my issue is that the phrase “big, beautiful women” (as opposed to “big and beautiful in my own eyes”) seems to suggest an objective assessment that you had better agree with.

Having said that, there can be a world of difference between one’s words and what one means to say, especially when it comes to terse descriptions like these.

68

I was wondering about it too. This thread of mine shows some responses to my musings.

69

One consideration is that employers seem to be working people more than ever before, and many people, especially those with children, don’t have a lot of time for exercise and health-related stuff, up to and including preparing meals from scratch.

I know that when I used to work out and all that, it took up a significant chunk of my spare time- when you include the time to and from the gym, it was something like 40% of my weekday after-work time. I ate healthy choice TV dinners and stuff like that; if I’d have had to cook, I wouldn’t have bothered.

Many people don’t or can’t put that type of time commitment into being healthy, and with the way that “food has become this weird grotesque entity” (thanks Merkwurdigliebe), it’s not terribly surprising that people are much more prone to being overweight.

I tend to think a lot of the “fat acceptance” people’s thinking goes like this: “I’m tired of being stigmatized for being fat. Most people nowadays are fat. Let’s try to make it acceptable to be fat.” But… I’d be willing to bet you any sum you care to mention that 99% of them would happily take a drug that allowed them to lose 2 lbs a week with little work and no side effects.

70

The social pressures you listed in 1 and 2 are already in place. If it weren’t socially acceptable to ‘support that norm’, there wouldn’t be the constant stream of articles in the media, features on TV, etc regarding the obesity epidemic, ways to lose weight, how to teach your kids what to eat, etcetera. I can’t imagine what more you want; you already have society on your side.

If what you are looking for is permission to feel that fat people should lose weight without feeling guilty, go right ahead. The only problem with this attitude is that so many people aren’t capable of just having that opinion without moving further into disparaging thoughts or comments about fat people that have nothing to do with the weight issue, as in ‘fat people are lazy’ or ‘fat people are sloppy and unkempt’. When the weight issue gets turned into a moral or value judgement on my entire life, that’s when I have a problem with the opinion.

The only ‘fat’ site I have ever read before tonight was Fatshionista, because I was interested in finding clothes that didn’t make me feel like I was an old woman, and I had previously confined myself to the clothing posts. But tonight I read links to some of the fat acceptance blogs, and all I really get from them is people just asking to be left alone to live as they see fit. Not asking someone else to endorse their ‘big sloppy glutton’ lifestyle, to quote mswas’s description, but just for the respect they are owed as human beings.
Oh, and before I forget, regarding your point 3, if businesses choose to make adaptations to support larger customers, it seems to me that it should be their choice to do so. I wouldn’t say that I am in favor of requiring modifications from government or from private businesses.

71

It’s disheartening on this message board to see people post that in general obese people eat as much and exercise as much as thin people. This has not only been discussed before, it’s been proven in studies that self-reporting of calories intaken and exercise performed is rife with error.

See for example from the NEJM: Discrepancy between self-reported and actual caloric intake and exercise in obese subjects - PubMed

You see those numbers I bolded? That isn’t chump change. And before anyone disputes the errors of self-reporting and self-delusion of calorie intake and exercise, Google around a bit, spend some time on Pubmed, etc.

We see it again and again - “but all I eat is one green salad a day, and I still gain weight!” I hear that at work from my secretary who I catch just “having a little snack” with a 500-calorie donut or 600-calorie bagel with an inch of cream cheese on it. It’s bullshit, unless there’s a First Law violation. I do it myself - I’m not obese, but I am trying to lose 5 pounds, and I found out with Fierra’s help that I was snacking on things and somehow not realizing it. At the end of the night when I was filling out the spreadsheet she would say “you forgot this thing you ate, and remember you had some of that as a side at dinner…” Good God, nearly every day I forgot or left out something that she remembered.

I’m not trying to come down on obese or overweight folks, or pass judgment on people, but rather to point out a scientific fact that self-reporting is fraught with error and self-delusion. It’s about as effective as me trying to guess my blood sugar without a quantitative glucometer. What I’m saying is if you really want to lose weight, get an attentive third party - family member, friend, or paid therapist - to track your calories and exercise for a week or so, and then see how much you’re really eating and how much you’re really exercising. That’s how you start - assess the situation, get the facts, and stop pretending like you and everyone else you know somehow all have a “glandular problem.”

72

I don’t want to attack you, and I agree with most of your post. But the last part of this sentence just gets my goat. You say you don’t want to be judgmental or come down on obese people but this is exactly what you’re doing there. I get it that you’re annoyed with your secretary’s droning about her struggles to lose weight as she consumes high-calorie food in front of you. Perhaps you should have that conversation with her, but do you really think it’s fair or accurate to extend her excuse to others?

It comes across as sad to me that your secretary feels she has to justify her dieting attempts and her eating habits to anyone other than herself. But that’s what society asks of overweight and obese people. If we are not being perfect in our eating habits at all times, there is always someone out there watching and judging. I’m not saying that you’ve displayed any judgment toward her, but if she’s significantly overweight, she’s experienced plenty of it in her life already as evidenced by the fact that she feels she needs to make the excuses in the first place.

As it happens, I know an entire family with a ‘glandular problem’ - my husband’s family. It was first diagnosed in his mother years ago, and over time he and all his siblings have been diagnosed as well. Some are obese, and some are underweight. But it has never occurred to me to give the obese ones more of a ‘pass’ on their body type due to their illness than I would give the ordinary obese person, because it never mattered to me in the first place what they weighed.

I probably don’t have as many of the ‘excuses’ conversations, because obese people can see that I’m one of them. They know I’m not going to judge their food intake or what they’re buying because I have my own display of my faults. So I can see that your experiences are probably quite different from mine, and I can extend that to understand just a bit your irritation with the subject. But can you reverse the situation and see how pathetic it is that people should feel that they have to resort to those excuses in the first place?

I wanted to address another part of your post. You mentioned tracking calories and exercise for a week or so. In order for me to lose sufficient weight to conform to standards, I will have to commit to doing this for the rest of my life. There will never be a time that I cannot be aware of what I am eating and how much I am exercising. This seems overwhelming and scary to me. I’m sure that’s hard for people to understand. But the amount of commitment needed to organize and carry out such a lifestyle change will have to be what amounts to an obsession with me in order for it to happen in the first place, and right now the payoff at the end doesn’t compensate for the amount of effort I have to put into it. So I understand the FA people in a way, because until a person finds the payoff to be worth the struggle, the attempts aren’t going to work. In the meantime, while we find the strength, some tolerance wouldn’t be unwelcome.

I generally try not to let Dopers this far into my psyche, because in addition to being a kind, understanding, caring bunch of people, we can also be incredibly snarky, insensitive, and judgmental. But I thought that maybe if one person could see what’s in my head as I read the various ‘fat’ threads, it might make a tiny difference.

73

Hmmm…You know I’ve never gone into an eating establishment and had them ask “Would you like Fat bastard section or the no Fat bastards section?”.

I’m only kidding, so all of the fat people can calm down.

74

No, pretty much everyone who is not a “natural” size 2 knows exactly what you’re dealing with. You always have to watch what you eat, and for all of us with extra pounds, it is a lifetime of thinking about it. But it can be done - you should have seen my manilla folders with strict calorie calculations, my hand-designed workout tracker, and all of the little notes I had detailing my eating. I did it for many months, and I was so happy to have muscle definition, more energy, etc. And I looked fabulous - never a size 2, but my hard work made me feel like I looked like a supermodel.

Here’s what I see what the FA crowd - they are (very understandably so) intimidated by the sheer amount of willpower and hard work it will take to shed whatever pounds they want to shed. They are not ready to start - it’s very much a decision like going to rehab, so it takes time to get to that point. But, instead of mentally working toward getting ready to start this hard job, they spend their time bitching about the world and ranting about CNN and classism and sexism…Ugh…

They say they just want acceptance, but they embrace bad science and faulty logic in order to disguise their own personal failure to start being healthy. There’s no shame in being afraid of changing your entire lifestyle and sense of self, but don’t pretend it’s okay and healthy to be 100 pounds overweight.

I think it’s almost impossible for many people not to view the obese* as lazy. How could it not? Excepting the “bad glands” crowd, overeating and lack of exercise lead to obesity. It’s one of the most simple equations in biological science. I have fat people in my own family, and I know personally how it feels to pose with your friends for a photo, and look at it later - I always say “I look like a beast!” But, since the shame and disgust at my fat has yet to outweigh my desire to spend my time on other hobbies, I’m letting my extra 30 pounds sit tight (ha!) for the time being. But I’m not fooling myself about the impact that 30 pounds has on my health and mental wellbeing.

  • I use obese to refer to the 100+ pounds overweight crowd - BMI is pretty much useless for any real calculations.
75

I’m confused. You state earlier in your post that there’s no shame in being afraid of changing your entire lifestyle and sense of self, and then you say that it’s natural for others to make the judgment that those who have not yet made that change are lazy.

Work comes in many forms, not all physical, and perhaps those obese people are getting physical exercise as part of their lives, but not enough to have made an impact on their body size. Why does it have to be a moral judgment? Why can’t we just assume that those people are not ready to take on that lifestyle change yet? And the part that really befuddles me - why does anyone else care anyway?

I’m pleased for you that dieting worked for you. Not because you lost weight, but because you succeeded at something that was obviously very important to you. I just don’t think that it makes you a better person than I (than me?) if I would happen to choose not to take the same path. My argument is against the moral position, not the health effect.

76

That’s what I get for hitting the post button too soon.

I’m not trying to imply that I would be the only person who has to face a lifetime of thinking about diet and exercise. I am trying to convey to those who do not have this experience how it can look to one person. I’m not denying that it can be done, and you demonstrate the amount of effort you put into it. Is it that hard to understand why that amount of obsessive record-keeping would be sort of frightening to someone who hasn’t experienced it?

77

I understand when you have more to lose it seems daunting, but I truly believe that for the majority of people, it’s a lifetime commitment, including me. I have to work, everyday, to keep those 10-15 lbs. off. It’s not like it’s any easier for me than you. I get up at 5:30 in the morning. I pack a salad for lunch every day. I control my portion sizes. I’ve had alcohol twice this year-2 sips of champagne on my birthday weekend and I drank at my friends’ wedding. I quit smoking.

What I feel lucky about is that my body responds to my efforts fast. But it’s not like it’s any easier to execute those choices daily for the rest of us. Part of what I dislike about FA blogs and books like the one Gina Kolata wrote, is that they perpetuate this myth that for most-to-all fat people, their bodies stay that size whether or not they make the effort and that for the rest of us, it’s so easy. I think of it as a bell curve. At the far end we have people like my sister and father, who effortlessly maintain slim physiques no matter what their dietary habits* and then on the other end of the spectrum we have people who are going to be obese no matter what. And then in the middle fall the majority of us.

By the way, I found thinking of it on a day-by-day basis to be more helpful than OMGrestofmylife. But I suppose I had a very big incentive to lose weight-my mother was diagnosed with osteopenia and arthritis and seeing as I am her mini-clone there’s a very good chance I’ll get it down the line too. I simply cannot stress my body with excess weight and not exercise.

*Tthough not necessarily good health, for instance, my 122 lb. 5’6" father has a genetic predisposition towards Type II Diabetes and Heart Disease that he controls through diet and exercise. And I am proud as hell of him that he’s now on the lowest dose of lipitor AND does not take Diabetes medication at all, but brought his blood sugar down through exercise and limiting his diet.

78

an-ula1976 said it well - this is not something that’s just a problem for overweight people - everybody has to think about this every day. That is one reason why I think the “fat=lazy” stereotype developed.

The other is based upon our human tastes. I read a good point about how fat people are viewed in today’s culture:

The human animal is biased toward how healthy a potential mate looks. So we identify those that are unhealthy as unattractive, and therefore can’t understand why a fat person wouldn’t do something about it. Since we know exactly how to fix it, but they won’t, we assume they are uninformed or lazy.

Looking back at all of those paintings of big, fat naked women and cherubs and such from the 15th(?) century, we may think “Why the hell are all of these people so fat and why are they starring in a portrait naked!!?” It is because, at a time when 80% of the population was starving to death, being fat was sexy - i.e. healthy.

Of course, we can talk about economic opportunity, access to healthy food, etc., now and back then, but I think the knee jerk reason for the “fat=lazy” idea is based upon our evolutionary desire to reproduce, and the modern images of health and beauty = thinness. You will note that the stick-figure thin look was also disgusting to most of the general population - I would think that is because it’s equally as unhealthy as being obese.

79

Being big entails more healthwise than just cardiovascular risks, or being uncomfortable in airplane seats. Being overweight can damage the very bone joints that hold you up.

In our eagerness to solve the obesity epidemic, which is a worthwhile goal, I think the Fat Acceptance Movement does serve an important purpose, by reminding us to look beyond how fat someone is and get to know the person. Like everyone else, fat people have lives, histories, family, friends, interests, and so on. Too often, they are overlooked in a way similar to the covert, inadvertent racism, sexism, and homophobia that still pervade the culture today.

I don’t think cultural standards of physical beauty will ever extend to include weights of 200# for women, or 300# from men. There are probably a few people in the movement who would like to make that happen, if they could, but it won’t.

80

I’m not discounting the amount of effort anyone who is working on their diet and exercise habits has to put into the undertaking. Maybe I wasn’t being clear enough about that before. I was trying (and am already starting to regret having done so) to provide some insight into the thought processes of one person who is at the beginning of the whole weight-loss thing for people who may have never experienced that sort of issue.

Part of what the FA people have to say resonates with me. I don’t agree with all they have to say but I get why they feel the way they do about many things.

I have to go not-be-lazy now. I look forward to reading whatever turn this thread takes, even if I don’t respond further.