My wife was always pretty skinny and she wasn’t a big eater. Then she got really skinny even though her diet didn’t change. She went to see a doctor and it was her thyroid; she had hyperthyroidism. Not only was she getting really skinny, her heart rate was really fast and was told it would be dangerous for her to exercise or exert herself. The doc also gave her some options but there wasn’t much time to think about which to chose as her condition was dangerous. Based on what doctors told us, it seemed her best choice was to have her thyroid nuked where it would basically become useless and shrivel up like a raisin. This caused her to have the condition of hypothyroidism which she started taking medication for right away. She got fat. She continues to get her blood tested and her medication adjusted but she doesn’t lose weight. She eats less than before and exercises because she doesn’t like being fat and she’s still fat. She barely eats enough to get proper nutrition. Do you she volunteered to be fat? Did this help at all to change your mind?
I’d like you to envision me standing, stomping, clapping wildly, and whistling through my fingers. (Which you’d have to imagine even in real life, since I can’t do that.)
BINGO.
capeo’s post really is revelatory and exemplifies such a common reaction. Even when they really do understand a lot of it, they still just react. It’s visceral. They envision unbridled gluttony.*
The persistent belief that because it is technically possible to reduce food intake to the point that weight will be lost, a given person’s failure to do so (consistently throughout one’s life, no matter what it takes for a given individual to do that) means a fat person is a glutton, weak, lazy, and indifferent gives people license to express their visceral disgust by being unkind, dismissive, even cruel.
I have no idea what your point is, but youi’ve clearly missed mine.
Which is: if only weak-willed, lazy, self-indulgent, indifferent and gluttonous people become obese (a premise you accept and I do not), then obesity is not the issue, obesity is simply the exterior manifestation of these deeper, more fundamental character flaws.
It therefore follows that the explosion of obesity is merely the indicator that there has been an explosion of weak-willed, lazy, self-indulgent, indifferent and gluttonous people.
What would cause such a strange yet pronounced upsurge in the percentage of people with these unfortunate traits?
Rand, man up. Have some intellectual integrity. You made a claim about what fat people say on these boards that provokes all negative speech against them. At your request I provided examples of unprovoked name-calling against the fat and requested that you similarly provide examples of the claimed many times (always even) that fat people were whining that it was “impossible” for them to lose weight. You gave two examples that upon review were not in any way that. (One was someone’s varying recollections of what a bariatric center allegedly claimed in a radio ad, and one was someone who very much took his failure to lose weight as a sign of his personal failings and weaknesses.) I’ve made mistakes in what I’ve claimed; we all do. I have acknowledged my errors (including the use of the phrase “hate speech” in this op). Have enough intellectual spine to do the same.
The oft repeated claim that fat people here “whine” about how it is “impossible” for them to lose weight, and that that is what provokes negative speech against the fat is an untruth. So is the claim that that negative speech against the fat is directed only against rude behavior committed by specific fat people with “fat” used as a mere descriptor. To have falsely believed one of those canards is one thing; to fail to acknowledge the error once it is made clear is a character flaw worse than laziness or gluttony.
Umm. No. 
His being drunk and crazy had very significant bearing on his behavior. Normal, healthy, sober people do not randomly punch strangers in the face. His being drunk and crazy explained his behavior. I’m perfectly comfortable with putting the idea in people’s heads, if in fact my story does, that drank and/or mentally unstable people may become suddenly violent towards strangers. It is a true statement and the knowledge could make people a little more cautious.
His being black had no bearing on anything at all. Bringing it into the story could easily reinforce a negative and untrue belief that some people have that black people are inherently more likely to be randomly violent, particularly towards white people.
As I’ve just shown, your perception of what mattered in the story is incorrect.
I can and do tell the whole story without mentioning that he was black. His being black is not part of the story, because it doens’t mean anything. I also don’t talk about what I was wearing, what he was wearing, what time of year it was, or many other things that have nothing to do with the story and wouldn’t be perceived as meaningful in any way.
Some people would assign meaning to his race. I don’t want to assist in that. And I find the fact that this makes you react so vividly very odd.
I used to make alot of fat jokes. I thought they were funny. One of the guys I play cards with is quite obese. I noticed one night when I made a fat comment in passing (not directly about him - just a general comment) that he cringed and looked hurt. I have made an effort to not make fat jokes since then.
Some people have a hard time realizing that jokes made about a general condition, such as fatness, are made about everyone who is suffering from that condition. Glad to see you made the connection.
Just a question. If the person is being rude, you’ll attack them for their weight and not their rudeness?
Your remark reminds me of what a friend and I got to witness and we still refer it it as “Perfect Instant Karma”. We were on a road trip at a gas station. We were filling our tank and there was a large truck at the pump next to us filling up. I mean a LARGE truck. Like, big tank. This gas station was pretty busy and there were cars lined up behind each person pumping gas. Behind the large truck was a jeep with three youngish guys. I’d say 20-25ish years old.
The girl with the truck was quite large. I’d guess she was probably about 30 years old. Maybe 5’6" and probably around 300 pounds. Big gal. She was pumping her gas and minding her business. My friend was pumping our gas and I was just walking around stretching my legs.
The guys in the jeep were all saying “COME ON!” and “HURRY UP!” and assorted things. All at once one of the guys in the jeep stood up and VERY loudly said something like “I guess I’ll go in and get a soda since it’ll be forever until that ugly fatass bitch gets done filling up.” He then went to jump out of the jeep and caught his foot on the side of the of the vehicle and TIMBBBBBBERRR he went face down into the pavement. Bloody nose which was probably broken, tooth knocked out, gash on his chin and road rash.
I ain’t gonna lie it was HILARIOUS. HI fucking LARIOUS. Yes, yes it was a human being in pain. As a nurse I went to see if he was okay and if he needed any assistance but I ain’t gonna lie, I laughed at him the whole time. His friends laughed at him. Other people laughed at him who were pumping their gas.
I hate to say it, but he deserved what he got IMHO. She wasn’t doing a damned thing other than filling her tank just like everybody else.
Now, I’ve been thinking a bit about this thread. I think part of the problem that I’m noticing is that there is so much judgment being batted around about choices.
Why are choices being framed as bad or good? It happens on both sides of the argument. Choices always have consequences which can be positive or negative depending on the situation and perspective of the person viewing it.
On this board (and of course in real life) there are ALWAYS people questioning and judging the choices of others. I’m just as guilty as anyone else. BUT! Not every time a choice is made is someone saying you’re BAD for making the choice. It’s simply a decision you make at the time and not (usually) a condemnation of your character forever more. Oh sure, there are choices like that (rape, murder, torture, etc) but most choices are not that way.
Look at the way cosmetic surgery is looked up on this board. “People like that are shallow and ridiculous!” is the general feeling. Why? We’ve had threads where ladies here have been ashamed to admit they like stereotypically girlie things. Why? A lot of people see jewelry or makeup as vain. So someone chooses to have botox. So what? Just because YOU would not make that choice doesn’t make you superior and them shallow.
Some people choose to exercise every day. Some people choose not to. One isn’t “right” and one isn’t “wrong” for their choices. They are just choices. You can make a different one tomorrow, so why let ANYONE (yourself included) make you feel bad for your choice?
For a place that is supposed to be the smartest people on the internet, there are a lot of hateful people here who love to feel smug and superior for what people choose to do. Home ownership vs renting. This movie vs that movie. People who have children vs people who don’t want children. The list goes on and on.
It isn’t enough to just disagree and talk about YOUR choice. It always ends up being someone wanting to feel smug about how they are right and everyone else is wrong. I think that too many people assume that every action or choice has to be some kind of summation of you as a person.
Blah blah blah, of course we are the sum of our choices and attitudes but not every single thing defines you as a person. Why let it?
I go back to this quote:
Where on earth she gets that I think getting thin is the only way to get healthy, I have no idea. This post in the other thread shows (especially the last paragraph) that I’ve said no such thing. But see, that seems to be the perception if you’re saying ANYTHING about someone taking control of their situation and trying to change. Automatically I must be a fat-bashing hater and against fat people. Huh? I’ve said nothing about beauty and the overweight. Nothing at all.
I KNOW that a lot of people have suffered from horrible comments (see my post previous to this one) about their weight. It has to be awful. I think that we have ALL had someone be hateful to us about our looks at some point in our lives. All of us.
But this idea that every person who isn’t fat is out there just looking at the obese with disgust is something that baffles me. Many of my patients tell stories about how they are afraid to go here or there because they’re afraid of being made fun of. One refused to go on vacation because she knew that everywhere she went skinny people (especially women) would trash talk her.
That breaks my heart. Am I saying it doesn’t happen? No. Is everyone thinking terrible things about someone who is obese? No.
My girlfriends and I go out a lot. Most of my close friends that I hang out with work at a dayspa/salon. They are all about hair and makeup and face treatments and clothes and all things girlie. Me too. We almost never go anywhere without doing ourselves up.
Not ONE time have I ever heard these girls rag on some girl for being fat. Not ever. We’ve been out A LOT to restaurants, beaches, clubs, concerts, museums, etc etc. Not one time has any of us said anything to draw attention to a large person. Are we saints? Nope. If some woman walks in with two tons of makeup and hair sky high we give each other THE LOOK. But it’s never happened about weight. I swear on my eyes.
Just because I believe that people have the power to change their bodies doesn’t mean I hate fat people. It doesn’t mean I look down on them. It doesn’t mean that I think I’m better than they are. I can’t be alone in feeling this way.
There are a few people in this thread who I have seen making fun of people they feel are less intelligent than they are. Intelligence is as much a product of your early years as weight. Why do people here delight in making fun of ignorance or people who aren’t as smart as they are? Are they not just as nasty as people who call people fattie?
Of course people shouldn’t be bashing someone simply for their weight. I didn’t advocate that here or in the other thread but I sure have been treated her like I have. I just wish the people here who want the overweight to be above being made fun of would remember that the next time they have an urge to act superior about their own “good” choices.
I think you’re wrong, unless we’re counting the sort of mockery little boys do to girls they have mad crushes on, like dipping their pigtails in ink, and I don’t think that really counts. (My sister is ridiculously adorable and has been her whole life: giant green eyes with long black lashes, boatloads of thick black hair, kewpie doll lips, perfect freckles. perky tits, a flat belly and even though she’s short, legs that go on forever. The only one who was ever hard on her about her looks was her. I don’t think she’s an isolated case.)
It should, since I haven’t noticed anyone saying that’s true.
-
Intelligence is a genetic trait (although it can be blunted by severe deprivation in early childhood)
-
Ignorance can be changed far more easily than obesity.
-
Have you actually noticed anyone "making fun"of ignorance? I find that difficult to believe. Calling it out when the ignorant clings to the ignorance? Yes. (That’s what the Straight Dope is all about…look at the top of the page) Mocking it? Not so much. (And none of the above in regards to genuinely limited intelligence.)
Oh Stoid, you’re never going to give up are you? Do you REALLY believe that EVERY SINGLE PERSON is looking at the obese with disgust just because people aren’t running up to you to say so? You seriously need to get a grip. For real.
And BS on the idea that thin people aren’t ridiculed at some point. I guess your sister has lived a charmed life because I know quite a few gorgeous women who have gotten nasty remarks. Also, this is 2010 so you might want to reconsider new phrases since I haven’t seen ink to dip pigtails in at all in my lifetime.
When I was a cocktail waitress at a casino I worked with some women that were breathtakingly beautiful. You bet your life they had people make rude remarks to them and not just when they were wearing their uniforms. I’m talking out in the real world. So yes Stoid, your sister’s experience must be the only reality you’re willing to see.
Also, intelligence CAN BE stunted by severe deprivation? Try again. It WILL be stunted. And guess what, the deprivation doesn’t have to be all that severe.
You’re beyond reaching if you can honestly sit there and say you’ve never seen anyone make fun of ignorant people around here. Seriously Stoid, that made me laugh out loud.
I must be nuts to even bother responding to you. I’ve read enough from you over the years to know what a hopeless case this discussion is. Seriously though, you’re a million laughs. You’re not willing to consider ANY point of view that doesn’t line up with your own version of reality if it’s one of your pet topics. This seems to be one of your biggest pet topics. If other people want to have reasonable discussions, I’m all for it but I’m done playing your game.
You’re denying reality. It’s plenty common to hear talk or implications about how a skinny woman must starve themselves, that they aren’t physically capable, that they aren’t a “real” woman, that they must be stupid and/or shallow…etc, etc, etc.
A close female friend of mine lost a noticeable amount of weight recently. She turns down dessert at an office lunch, and now she’s got people stopping by her desk asking her if something wrong, if she’s feeling all right, has she seen a doctor recently. It’s pretty obvious what they think must be the case, just because she’s skinny.
Actually, it’s not because she’s skinny, it’s because she has lost a surprising amount of weight in a very short time and her coworkers are worried. If she’d always been that weight I doubt they’d care. I’ve never assumed that someone starves themselves. Not once. AFAIK it’s mostly women who accuse other women of doing it.
Jealousy.
I’ve seen this attitude right here on this board. Almost every time there’s a thread in CS about various Hollywood starlets, someone always comes in to mention how Jessical Alba/Keira Knightly/Jennifer Love Hewitt is too skinny and needs to eat a sammich*.
*-No, I will not go find you an example.
What’s more, it’s considered fairly acceptable to ridicule women (especially the Hollywood starlet types) for being “too skinny.” Level the same kind of ridicule toward women with a few pounds to lose though, and there will be hell to pay.
Haven’t read the thread, but all I’m going to say is this:
I’ve been getting regular exercise for the first time in months because of this thread, particularly the “fat hate speech” by Chimera, AClockworkMelon, and especially Rand Rover. Thank you, Rand Rover. If I knew you in real life for some reason (and I was older), I’d buy you a beer.
I think a lot of the difficulty you are having can be traced to the fact that you are not understanding what you’re reading to begin with:
Sleeps sez:
I say:
Then Sleeps, bizarrely, replies:
So as long as you are going to make things up to argue with, you certainly don’t need me.
So… carry on!
I don’t see how the two comments are mutually exclusive. I was responding to Sleeps’ assertion:
by responding with an example I am personally familiar with of someone who has not had that experience, therefore “all” is not true.
You responded by talking about comments made about skinny women. My sister isn’t even skinny.
Is your sister overweight?
This is a disingenuous comparison at best, for the simple reason that as a rule, thinness is highly prized as beautiful in our society, and held up as the ideal. The fact that sometimes some women push it a tad too far and some people comment on it does not come anywhere near being the same or even similar to the experience of the overweight and obese. *** Not even close.***
Especially given the fact that by the time someone has become skinny enough to be considered genuinely disgusting by most people in the same way fat people are considered genuinely disgusting by most people, they are dangerously close to dying of starvation, and the issue stops being appearance because everyone’s so worried.
Even when obesity becomes so extreme that it’s obviously in imminent danger of killing the person, people still manage to be judgmental.