And yes, we really should cut out the name calling of people based only on their religious group identification, or political orientation, or style choice, or a host of other factors. Or at least, on the SDMB, keep it in The Pit, where it is defined as appropriate.
You have a problem with that?
Is this a tough guy routine?
Re your claim of contradictory studies:
Ah, You got nothing then.
Please. Get a list of cites from your consulting physicians and post them. I’m sure they have huge files. Unfortunately they’ll all be saying the same things I’ve posted.
Oh wait. You’re claiming that they’ve already given you copies of these articles and that you’ve read them. Sharing that is really easy then. Please post us the links to the abstracts. PubMed is your friend.
Or not if you are just talking out of your ass.
Re “tough guy” - no an honest question. Do you have a problem with that?
Oh yes, because I won’t play the cite game with you and all of your self-reporting studies (because people ALWAYS report accurately, right? just like patients always take their medication as prescribed), that means I have nothing. You’ll forgive me if I don’t really take it as an insult that someone of your level of ridiculousness on this subject thinks I’m talking out of my ass.
Really and truly you’re not doing many people any favors here. Throwing out the fantastical “HATE SPEECH!” claim is borderline laughable and I’m someone that wanted Gruntled to shut up in that thread and called him out on it twice.
You go ahead and bask in your “I’m right!” glow if you feel you need to, I will not play your game. The numbers in many, many self reporting studies absolutely do not match those of patients who are in a facility where their daily food and activity is documented and measured.
Honestly, have fun. Don’t be disappointed when very few people end up changing their behavior or ideas over this silly thread.
Ok, my last response because like I said I’m not going to play your game.
No, I do not have a problem with people stopping the name calling outside of The Pit. Having said that, I do not want to see more rules and claims of hate speech. For me, name calling requires a bit of hate (or at least strong dislike) so almost any name calling could be considered hate speech for anyone.
No new rules for it. People should report any post they find offensive and let the mods decide. That’s my opinion. You’ll find that I do not normally play the name-calling game even in the few Pit threads I’ve participated in let alone outside the Pit
I think NOTHING productive was accomplished by Gruntled’s posts in that thread even when he was saying things that were somewhat true because of the way he said them and his insistence on being as combative as possible. It frustrated me so I said something to him. If the mods wanted him to stop they’d have stopped him.
Now, I’m done.
Sleeps this is GD. Providing the evidence that supports a factual claim you make is what this forum, and for that matter GQ, are all about, so much so that “cite please” is a joke catch phrase. It’s how we know people are not just making shit up. That’s not “my game”; it’s how people of any critical thinking skills come to their conclusions. I have provided many studies and reviews from the literature. You have made a claim that there are many articles that contradict those studies and that you’ve even read them. You are unwilling to support that claim, even to the point of linking to a single abstract of any of the articles that you claim to have read that contradicts any factual claim I have made. Okay. That’s that then.
No, I am not requesting more rules and don’t quite see where you got that from. I do believe that that thread could have used some modding earlier on enforcing extant rules but if I wanted that discussion I would have opened an ATMB post. And neither did I intend to Pit gruntled or anyone else. This thread is not about him/her or any specific poster. This thread is asking, in the more abstract, about what each of us should hold as an ethical obligation when others are referring to a class of others in an intentionally insulting manner (whether or not it qualifies as hate speech). It also takes the position that insulting the fat is tolerated more than insulting many other groups and that such should not be the case.
That discussion has only gotten so far. Some have argued that insulting the obese, that calling them names, is justified (because they cost us all health care dollars, or because they can do something about being fat, and so on). Some have denied that the fat as a class have been insulted on these boards, just individual fat people who have whined, and that they’ve only been insulted about their whining. (A claim that flabbergasts me, honestly.) Actually addressing the op has been the comment of one that silence does not tacitly imply tolerance of the behavior and that we have no moral obligation to stand up against unacceptable behaviors targeting others. And another position that I read as saying that while a predisposition to obesity may be primarily genetic, and while becoming non-obese once you already are an obese adult may be very difficult, it is at least possible to become non-obese, and is an outcome that would be generally considered desired, and is in that sense different than many other group memberships that are subjected to insults as a class. Which is a distinction I can appreciate but still fails to justify insults aimed at the class.
This. Is. Exactly. Right.
I think that is why so few people do stand up to bullying/hate speech… because they end up being the lone voice and maybe becoming a target themselves. One thing I have learned as a woman on this board is that speaking out against sexism is pointless. The experiences of women on the subject of sexism are for the most part discounted on this board because, you know, we’re women, so we’re biased about our own experiences and therefore have no credibility. The same thing happens to minorities on a routine basis. No doubt it happens for fat people as well – ‘‘How could you possibly have more insight into your own experience than I do? I know you say you’ve tried everything and suffer from a medical condition but based on my experience not being a fat person I can reasonably conclude that you’re just making excuses for your massive character flaws.’’
Still, there are times, especially those times where you do not belong to the class of people being denigrated – where you just gotta speak up.
In high school I was not the most popular kid, but I wasn’t the least popular kid either, and I remember homophobia was one of those issues I could not let go. I once gave the most popular kid in our school a full dressing-down in front of our class for a homophobic remark, saying something to the effect of, ‘‘You realize someone sitting in this classroom is probably gay. How the hell do you think that kind of talk makes them feel?’’ And he seemed genuinely ashamed and embarrassed because I don’t think anyone ever did anything for him but encourage that kind of bigotry. I’m not saying for a second I think it changed him, but I was thinking more of the closeted gay kid in the class who might think, ‘‘Oh, maybe not everyone thinks I’m scum after all.’’ Because silence does imply acceptance, if only from the perspective of the one being bullied. Rather than thinking, ‘‘that guy is against me,’’ one might think, ‘they’re all against me.’’ And the difference in psychological impact between ‘‘that guy’’ and ‘‘everyone’’ is pretty significant.
It’s harder to be that kind of force on the internet because we’re all supposed to pretend we don’t care what other people think, and we’re supposed to think insulting other people is funny. Now there are definitely good times in the Pit where it’s clear people are really just letting off steam and there are no hard feelings. But there are other cases of just blatant mean-spiritedness by truly ugly human beings. Social convention in the Pit suggests certain behaviors are not to be commented on, and that’s something I struggle with. Nobody wants to be the ultra-PC harpy, but at the same time, I know from experience that even words from anonymous people on the internet can be painful. Working out the appropriate time to speak up and when to just let it go has been a challenge for me.
And another thing – something I’ve learned from studying systemic racism in grad school – is that when we treat hate speech as an isolated incident or a problem with a single individual, we downplay how deeply bigotry (racism, sexism, homophobia) is ingrained into our society. We say, ‘‘Look over here! Look at this racist! What an anomaly! Censure!!!’’ when in reality that one person is just a product of a racist society and a symptom of a larger problem. The racist is not, to borrow a Zen Buddhist metaphor, the moon itself, but rather the finger pointing at the moon.
Well., it’s. not. exactly. right… I. mean., it. may. not. be. “hate. speech.”, but. it. is. “jerk. speech.”. More. importantly., assuming. that. fat. implies. lazy. is. just. wrong. and. stupid… Also., the. idea. that. it’s. “enabling.” something. is. bizarre., since. there’s. nothing. wrong. with. being. fat.!
You guys sound like the people in this onion video:
Onion Link
Irrelevant objection. The question was whether it was hate speech or not. By your own admission then, bengangmo’s statement was exactly correct.
Is it jerk speech? Certainly, but that’s irrelevant to bengangmo’s claim, and I think you know it.
Good grief. Claiming that most people are NOT at one extreme DOES not imply they are at the other extreme. WFT twice over.
Gosh, you mean the extreme where MOST people only have a bit of trouble controlling their weight?
I guess you missed the recent SDMB poll eh? Since you are such a fan of self reporting.
And for that matter I never said it justified insulting speech. You are the one equating calling a fat person fat HATE speech, which most people here on the SDMB have told you they think its a bunch of BS.
Oh, come on. bengangmo is saying a hell of a lot more than ‘‘it isn’t hate speech.’’ (Which, by the way, it’s not. It’s just being an asshole. ‘‘Hate speech’’ is a special word reserved for people who have been violently oppressed because of class characteristics beyond their control. When we reach the Obesity Lynching Era of the 2020s, we can talk about hate speech.)
(bolding mine)
He’s clearly saying, ‘‘Not only is it not hate speech, it’s not even jerk speech, because we’re doing these fat lazy bastards a favor, you see, by pointing out that they are fat and lazy.’’
Which as I and several others have pointed out via citation in this and other threads, is demonstrably bullshit. It’s not just bullshit, it’s disingenuous bullshit. There’s a big difference between working seriously and compassionately with someone to combat their excuses and saying, ‘‘Well, if you would just stop being so lazy, all this would go away.’’ Lazy is a nonsense bullshit word anyway. Who the fuck doesn’t avoid extra work when they can? The reality is the only time people bother to engage in any productive behavior is when it’s sufficiently reinforcing or has become an established habit due to past reinforcement. The key to engage people in healthy behaviors is to help them create environments that reinforce healthy behaviors. This allows them to establish new habits which as far as we can tell will probably not impact weight loss but will at least make them healthier by any measure that matters. Explaining to an overweight person how lazy they are is absolutely meaningless in the context of behavior modification.
See? Nothing in there about fat people being lazy and lacking willpower. The opposite, in fact – ‘‘That’s what we used to think and we were wrong.’’
This might be true, although the citation I linked to indicates that there is a heavy negative bias in the medical field toward obese individuals which is not borne out by the evidence. If we accepted that both positions were well-supported by evidence, though, that would mean that the evidence for the etiology and treatment of obesity is at this point inconclusive. It wouldn’t be a free pass to call every fat person lazy and lacking willpower. (I think you understand this, Sleeps, but I don’t think everyone in this thread does.)
Something else–
I think people in this thread are failing to understand the difference between gaining weight and being overweight.
Take two people, both 180 pounds. One has been 180 pounds all of her life, the other one used to be 120 pounds until the pregnancy and then slipped into unusual eating habits. The person who was once 120 pounds will most likely find her way back to 120 pounds if she is willing to work and make healthy changes, because she is physiologically and habitually conditioned to be 120 pounds. Leaving aside her genetic predisposition to being a healthy weight, she has strongly established neurological pathways for healthy habits. This is a success story.
The person who has always been 180 pounds will probably never be 120 pounds, because she is physiologically and habitually conditioned to be 180 pounds. But in order to ensure her health, it would be best that the 180 pound girl engage in regular exercise and a nutritious diet. She must do this with the knowledge that it probably won’t affect her weight all that much – 10 or 15 pounds if she’s lucky. This too, can be a success story, though it may be tainted by the fact that she is going to have to take shit for how lazy and unmotivated she is by people who have no idea what they’re talking about.
The problem is, people keep pushing Person B into the paradigm of Person A, when they are two entirely different creatures.
Well, you are right that I don’t read every thread here or follow you around in life. But in the GQ thread you linked to, the “it’s not my fault” aspect absolutely came first–it’s in the freaking thread title.
You seem to have a personal stake in this issue, so of course you see all negative statements toward fat people as fat bashing. But the simple truth is that it’s usually not, at least on this message board, in my experience. It’s whiner bashing.
I humbly request that discussion about the hijack of what is and is not hate speech join this thread.
Thank you.
This is a load. First of all, fat is fat and when a person chooses to become fat is neither her nor there. Secondly, it’s always voluntary and always possible to get un-fat. The excuses are bullshit. Maybe it’s not easy, but it’s not impossible, and it’s always a condition the person to chose to get themselves into.
If obesity is so involuntary, how come I never saw any fatties in the third world? The only way people acquire body fat is by eating. A person’s weight is a direct consequence of taking in more calories than what they burn off. It’s pretty simple. Eat less and exercise. Anybody can do it. If they don’t want to, fine, but it’s still just because they don’t want to, not because they can’t.
I’m pretty sure this post is copied & pasted into every single weight loss/fat thread that has ever existed on this and every other message board in the history of the internet. Seriously, thanks for the original thought. I was worried we wouldn’t have the chance to flog that horse into a meat-like pulp.
I know I’m going to regret coming back into this thread, but aren’t you generalizing quite a bit? You’re assuming that the 120 pound person has a genetic predisposition to being a healthy weight right off the bat. Millions of people successfully fight their genetics each and every day, let’s not pretend it’s even close to impossible.
Also, I think as someone who knows quite a bit about cognitive therapy you understand that neurological pathways can be formed by good habits or bad. Your example is leaving out the fact that the person who has always been 180 pounds can form new pathways via force of habit to a healthy lifestyle and therapy. These pathways are not unchangeable and your example seems to lead one to believe that person A has those lucky ol’ good pathways while person B does not.
Like most worthwhile things in life, it isn’t easy. Of course it isn’t easy. Some things are easier for some people than others. You might sail through college while someone else has to grind it out. I might have an easier time learning a new skill while someone else struggles. We all have advantages and drawbacks in life and I don’t think anyone has said it is EASY to lose weight.
Addictions aren’t easy to overcome. Terrible childhoods aren’t easy to overcome. Crippling debt isn’t easy to get out of. All of these things (and so many more) take preparation, research, habit, dedication and persistence.
Too many people show up in these threads to spout the idea that if you disagree with the falsehood that in general most obese people cannot change their bodies then you are some kind of hater of the overweight. It’s silly and childish and just plain wrong. Not only that, it sickens me to see so many people grasping to the idea that change is not possible for these people. Nothing like reading that you’re screwed before you even start. It takes away people’s hope and can make their determination wane. It’s unfair, unrealistic, and sets people up for failure.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, doctors should be strongly suggesting therapy to people who are obese along with dietary and exercise programs. Hell, I think almost EVERYONE could benefit from therapy, but IME most obese (especially morbidly obese) people need emotional conditioning to work through psychological issues which work against them AND the self loathing/I-don’t-deserve-to-succeed thinking that so often accompanies morbid obesity.
All-in-all there is far too much negativity on all sides of the debate. So many people throw around cites that shaming the overweight doesn’t work, yet they insist on clinging to their negative viewpoint when it comes to success. When I see it I can’t help to wonder if there isn’t a little bit of fear on their part that they cannot succeed so it’s best to sit and do nothing while claiming it just isn’t possible. So sad.
Geez…
The general questions “fat” thread didnt go well…so lets jump over to “fat people = hate speech” thread…well thats not going well…so lets just debate what hate speech is…
It was correct the first time, too.