Does it matter? Yeah, I think it matters. He’s railing against something that he was 100% wrong about. The person who kept using the term fattie/fatty was Gruntled and he was called out for it more than once. If he was so offended he should have REPORTED THE POST like you’re supposed to when you see something wrong. Even the people WHO AGREE WITH HIM are getting the rough side of his tongue.
Of course it’s wrong to name call. Only one person in that thread seemed to think it was okay. Does the OP want to go on record and say he hasn’t made derogatory comments about women he thinks are underweight. I don’t think he wants to do that, because he has.
It’s pretty bad when you’re actually wanting to fight people who agree with you. That’s when your obsession has reached a WTF level.
Wow. Nice catch. That is ridiculous. Dseid’s inability to detect meaningful differences extends farther than I thought.
And how many of those examples are either (i) the use of inflammatory language sarcasticly or otherwise without malicious intent (as in the aforementioned post #37) or (ii) examples of bashing whiners and not fat people for being fat?
The closest to someone saying something that could be interpreted as that it is “impossible” was me, by the way.
And what I was saying was this:
If someone is morbidly obese (or seriously obese with a significant comorbidity like diabetes) sustainably losing weight by lifestyle changes will be very difficult. It should be tried but if someone approaches that task without an understanding of how difficult it is going to be, with an attitude that all they need is to not be weak and they can do it, without a plan to stick with a new lifestyle plan not as a diet but as a way of life that they stick with even when the pounds don’t come off, then they are very likely to end up as one of that majority for whom even the best of medically supervised fat loss programs fail to achieve sustainable fat loss - and not because they were weak or lazy but because the biology is that stacked against success. It takes more than will power alone to change from an obese adult into a non-obese one, at least while living in our society.
And for someone who has failed a medically supervised plan trying their honest best, and is morbidly obese (or, again, seriously obese with significant comorbidity), bariatric surgery may be life-saving. It is, if anything, underutilized (IMHO) and “experts” passing on the view that “surgery is for the weak” are allowing their ignorance to do others a major medical disservice.
And no Rand I did not say or imply in any way that all negative things said to or about fat people is “fat bashing” - my op very specifically stated
and also very specifically stated that I held thinking of the fat as “weak-willed” was mere ignorance. I have stated very clearly that just as I would be willing to engage with someone who held what are in my view ignorant negative stereotypes about gays but would call them out for using the term “fag”, I will gladly discuss why I disagree with negative stereotypes bout the fat but not tolerate when the “fattie” and "lazy assed"s come out.
I’m going to sit here and chuckle to myself while you catch up reading this thread, Dseid. It’s really funny to see you repeat the “weak ass fatties” line when SWB just posted the link, which clearly shows that the term was used ironically.
Having read through the thread, I agree with Bengangmo- calling someone a “Fatty” isn’t nice, but there’s absolutely no way it’s hate speech unless there’s some prolonged history (or intent on the part of the speaker) of the obese being hunted down with harpoon guns to the cry of “FATTY AHOY!” that I’ve been unaware of until now.
AClockworkMelon because that was what the op was about. And, barring your disagreement about the phrase “hate speech” it seems that you do not disagree much.
My questions remains though - do you believe that insulting the fat is more tolerated than insulting other groups and where should the line be drawn that we are obligated to not be silent, if one exists.
Oh and having caught up Rand the point still stands: the op very clearly did not state lumping all negative things said to or about fat people was “fat bashing.” I have not at all expressed that I am “mad at people that get on fat people’s cases when the fat people say that being fat is not their fault.” Your experience in threads about which more commonly comes first is not mine.
Yes, insulting the fat is more tolerated than insulting other groups. I get a good laugh whenever a severely overweight person tells a smoker “You should really quit, you know”, a situation I’ve seen quite a bit IRL. I don’t know where the line should be drawn. If I saw people mocking fat people who had done nothing to draw their ire but be fat, I’d think the people doing the mocking are tremendous assholes.
I cannot understand why you can read what **Palacheck **said and not get that he was being sarcastic at the guy saying that surgery is for the weak. He was mocking him for losing such a small amount of weight yet stating such ridiculous things about bariatric surgery. I honestly cannot fathom how you could read that as anything other than sarcasm toward someone on the other side of YOUR argument. The only way it makes sense to me is that you’re just not really reading what others are saying. It’s like talking with someone in person and they’re not listening to you because they’re too busy formulating what THEY are going to say back.
As for your slam on thin women… does this ring a bell? (Bolding mine)
You were denigrating the way she looks. It took another poster in that thread to point out to you that it was shitty before you even realized it. You also didn’t seem to mind the bashing that Auntbeast got in this thread for being what people considered too thin. You laughed it off and told her that comments about her body shape had nothing on comments about her kids.
I’d say that on this messageboard there are far more insults aimed at people who are on the thin side rather than on the fat side. Even people who are of a normal weight are often called “HOLLYWOOD SIZE ZERO” and too thin. I’ve often marveled at how completely off some people’s perception is of what is a normal weight and what is not. I read a rant here once about how Anne Hathaway needed to eat a cheeseburger or two and I couldn’t believe my eyes. Anne Hathaway is not too thin. She’s probably a size 6 or an 8.
I hate to bring up Hollywood, but that is where a lot of people get odd ideas. Do people really believe what they read about celebrities being a size 2 all the time? Did people really believe it when Beyonce’s publicist tried to say that a dress for her had to be taken in to accommodate her 19 inch waist? I almost laughed myself into vomiting on that one. Beyonce hasn’t had a 19 inch waist since she was in junior high, I’m betting. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with her, I’m just saying that lying about your size benefits no one. Sure it isn’t anyone’s business, but that’s another way women get body issues and men get unrealistic expectations.
Look at Jessica Simpson. After this picture came out the bloggers were talking about her weight gain. Her sister and the family publicist tried to say that Jessica had gained weight and went from a size 2 to a size 4. Now come on. Be serious.
So you get teenage girls who see that and think “Oh wow, I’m a size 8 and look how big she is!” so they think they need to starve to get below a 4. It’s just silly. Should people get wrapped up in celebrities? Of course not! But, it’s part of our culture for good or for ill and these things do make a difference.
So that’s MY little rant on weight issues. If it isn’t funny to say that someone is a fatty then it sure isn’t funny to talk about someone needing to eat a sandwich, but I’ve yet to see you get upset about that.
There comes a time when all hope…and all credibility…is lost.
I believe when it comes to Sleeps’ contributions to this topic, that point has been reached, and passed.
(Stoid now re-lurks, since to do otherwise would be too time consuming and her sister would be disappointed. I was only reading, but this I could not let stand. Have a nice holiday everyone.)
Well Sleeps, I appreciate the fact that you are at least trying to support your claim this time. Generally it’s good form to link to a discussion to get a context though, in both cases.
So the first was from a Pit thread which is very pertinent to the last part of your post - a poster was Pitting the media for setting up the very thin as the ideal:
And following comments about a women saying that indeed that Monroe was too fat and that she personally get upset that she is too fat if her thighs touch.
You really think participating in a Pit thread about whether or not the ideal sexy body is as thin as Nicole Kidman’s (compared to the too fat Marilyn Monroe), and responding to a woman who has stated that thighs shouldn’t be so fat as to touch each other, and that she is upset when she looks in a mirror and sees that hers do, with that comment about how the media holding up Kidman’s “prepubertal thighs” as being ideal has consequences is being derogatory???
AuntBeast was complaining about comments being made by in-laws that she had lost too much weight and that they were doing so rudely. I responded 40 posts in with
THAT you call making a derogatory comment about her being thin?
You see sleeps, this is why we demand proof of what people claim - so we know when they are just making shit up. Again.
Oh, no I do not think Anne Hathaway is too thin. She is beautiful and sexy. And so was Marilyn Monroe. And Noicole Kidman is very pretty, but I wouldn’t hold her up as the ideal for others to emulate or else they are fat.
Are you saying though that someone saying that a particular celebrity is too thin and should gain some weight is the same as calling people fatties and saying that fat people are weak and lazy?
My statement is supported by the current research on obesity. People make the opposite claim here repeatedly, yet I notice a conspicuous absence of peer-reviewed literature.
People in third world countries are fucking starving to death. So yes, people in America would be thin if they could only starve themselves, good point.
Food certainly has a relationship to obesity, but it’s not as direct as you would like to think. A child’s eating habits affect his physiology and propensity for weight gain for the rest of his life. The true best way to ‘‘fight’’ obesity is to prevent it from happening in the first place.
Do you have a cite for that? I’ve posted only about four of my own, one of them from the Penn School of Medicine. Do you have a citation that obese people can, in the long term, achieve normal body weight with any reasonable rate of success?
Actually, I think pushing the verfiably false idea that every person is capable of being 120 pounds is unfair and sets people up for failure. I think giving people the impression that the only way they can possibly be healthy is if they fit the BMI’s definition of ‘‘normal weight’’ sets them up for failure.
Did you miss the citation where the behavioral therapists fully admitted that while they certainly can help people become more healthy, sustained long-term weight-loss is an unreasonable goal for the vast majority of their clients?
Sleeps, my interest in this subject has nothing to do with fear. It has to do with the reason I get involved in any thread in the first place – I want the truth. I like empiricism. I like gathering data. I like wrestling with new data that contradicts my worldview. Unfortunately, not a single person in this thread has offered a scrap of data for me to consider into my aggregate pile of data on ‘‘obesity.’’ This makes me sad. This board is so rabidly anti-science sometimes it kills me.
As for the notion that unsustainable weight-loss is negative and pessimistic, I would say no, it’s not. At all. Nowhere in my citations does any person treating the obese suggest that obese people may as well give up. Instead, they state quite clearly that obese people can improve their health tremendously by establishing healthy habits. In other words, the evidence has found, ‘‘fat people can be healthy, if they learn to engage in the right behaviors.’’ In fact, my friend, some studies have indicated that slightly overweight people who engage in healthy behaviors such as nutritious diets and routine exercise are likely to live longer than their thin counterparts.
So what’s the problem, then? Why is that not acceptably positive to you? Could it possibly have to do with our culture’s ingrained belief that fat = ugly and thin = beautiful? Yes, it’s tragic, indeed. Fat people can never be society’s definition of beautiful. But neither can I and neither can a lot of people. I suppose, like the rest of us, they will just have to carry on somehow.
Olives, you are looking at the issue from a public health perspective. Dio and SWB and me are looking at the issue from a personal perspective. You can’t mix and match the two or you end up not making any sense.
You can’t look at the studies you have cited and conclude that it is not a particular fat person’s fault if they can’t lose weight. Yes, the studies show that it is unlikely for a large percentage of fat people to lose weight and keep it off–but that does not mean that it’s not the fault of each one of those fat people who don’t lose the weight.
Yeah, there I go all macro again. I do that a lot.
That’s true, and I don’t want to give anyone the impression that I’m not advocating people take responsibility for their own health. I just think that when they do choose to change their behavior, they should have realistic expectations about how to define ‘‘success.’’ The likelihood that a 300 pound person is going to get down to 120 pounds in the first place is vanishingly small; the likelihood that that person will maintain that weight is even smaller. It’s true, there are people out there that have shown they can do it. But they are considered remarkable for exactly the reason that they are so rare.
If I could offer up a counterexample, which, although not a formal citation, does seem to contradict at least somewhat my position so far. I belong to a health website called www.sparkpeople.com. The vast majority of the people who come to the website go there to lose weight. It is one of the most supportive, positive, friendly, upbeat places on the internet, and it appears to actually be working to help people achieve sustained weight loss. It is just now starting to get the research treatment, but in terms of anecdotal evidence I concede it is something of a phenomenon.
Now those who are studying this website have concluded that the most crucial factor that is most likely allowing people to sustain weightloss is social support. The constant positive reinforcement by other people seems to be a huge piece of the puzzle. When we look at the punishing/shaming attitudes people tend to have toward themselves and others who are overweight, it is not hard to see how this could be a huge mitigating factor of sustained weight loss. Sparkpeople advocates responsibility alongside self-compassion, and encourages realistic, gradual weightloss. It is all about positivity and realistic expectations, and it appears to be working.
And in my experience, it works on a level far beyond weight-loss. While many people start out with that motivation, they often find that the self-efficacy they build in achieving healthy nutrition and establishing exercise routines leads to accomplishing goals they didn’t feel were possible. They go back to school, end abusive relationships, and just generally live a more self-directed life. Which does, again, indicate that obesity may be tied to a sense of powerlessness to make effective changes.
So maybe my cites are wrong. Maybe everything we know so far about weight-loss is about to get turned on its head by the likes of SparkPeople. However, there is a huge difference between saying, ‘‘you are to blame for this’’ and ‘‘regardless of who is to blame, you must take responsibility for this.’’ As Sleeps points out, we all have shitty experiences/life situations we have to work though. It’s not my fault that I have PTSD, but oh the fuck well. I’m certainly the only person who can do anything about it. The fact that I may never completely resolve my issues certainly isn’t a free pass for me to roll over and die.
We suffer from an ‘‘all or nothing’’ mentality here. Either obese people can achieve a normal weight or they should give up and get fatter and die young. Either we are helpless subjects to the forces of our environment or we are 100% to blame for everything undesirable in our lives. I believe there’s a middle ground somewhere, but that name-calling and shaming really has no place in any serious discussion about weight-loss.
Olives, I’m not saying your cites are wrong. I’m just saying that they aren’t on point. Where the subject is whether any individual fat person can lose weight, cites about the experiences of large numbers of fat people have no bearing on the question–the answer is only that of course that individual fat person can lose weight.
When they say they can’t, and other people direct negative speech toward them, the other people are not fat bashing, they are whiner bashing. So, when you and Dseid and Duke and others shake your head at the fat bashing you see, you are wrong, because no fat bashing is taking place.
This board is so rabidly anti-science sometimes it kills me.