wait, what? Are you asking me if I left it out purposely?
I didn’t realize that both pledges weren’t in the original article, honestly.
Food for thought from here:
For example, a recent study presented at the 2003 annual meeting of the American Psychological Society (APS) found that over 60% of college students who had pledged virginity during their middle or high school years had broken their vow to remain abstinent until marriage.
…
What is clear, however, is that no program of any kind has ever shown success in convincing young people to postpone sex from age 17, when they typically first have intercourse, until marriage, which typically occurs at age 25 for women and 27 for men. Nor is there any evidence that the “wait until marriage” message has any impact on young people’s decisions regarding sexual activity.
…while some teens promising to abstain from sex until marriage delayed sexual activity by an average of 18 months, they were more likely to have unprotected sex when they broke their pledge than those who never pledged virginity in the first place.
There is another article from the Guttmacher Institute that provides the data to support the above, but I can’t find it right now. It was dealing with the rise of STDs in teenagers, particularly those who had taken some sort of purity pledge. Apparently, purity is narrowly defined as vaginal intercourse.
Vlad/Igor
Funny, when I was reading the father’s pledge I was hearing the subtext, “Until I transfer title to said female human to another male.” Too bad that Christianity (or some parts of it) didn’t dump patria potestas along with such “pagan” practices as daily bathing.
I have told my daughters in no uncertain terms that I am not “giving them away” when they marry. If the priest/minister/imam/druid asks anyway, my response will be, “She gives herself.”
Here is the link to the Technical Virgin website.
Their TV comercials are off line, but Al Lowe has one over on his site
sounds more like a pledge a doper daughter would give. 
So is it safe to assume that none of you teach your children anything about your own values? And of course you never expose them to any other individuals or groups who agree with you on those values. I mean, what a horrible thing for a father to do, to promise to model integrity and accountability to his children. I can’t think of anything worse, to promise to lead, guide, and pray for one’s children. What absolutely awful people! Oh, my gosh!!
And if you’re going to object to making this pledge in public, because Christians are supposed to keep this kind of thing secret, are you going to object to weddings in church, with invited guests, too?
The fact is, you don’t agree with this particular set of values, so you will ridicule anything related to it.
My daughters both decided sometime back in junior high, or before, to wait until they are married to have sex. So far, they haven’t changed that decision. They also haven’t let boyfriends or relationships, or whatnot like that, get in the way of their future plans. I have let them both know that if they change their minds, I would like them to be safe and careful, and that if they need to come to me for help with that, they can. In the meantime, I try to guide them to be careful with what they do, so they don’t put themselves in a position where they make a decision they’ll regret later. If they’re going to decide to have sex I’d rather they make that decision in the cold light of day, rather than on the spur of the moment, in the face of temptation.
thirdwarning, I’m not going to ridicule the mindset behind this decision. I understand where it comes from. Why? Because I was in a similar position myself and promised I’d wait until marriage. Now, I only made it to the fellow who finally did make me an honest woman (and at 24 no less), but I was committed to that principle because of my Christian beliefs.
What do I think of how this plays out now? Seeing as how when I went through all of that almost 15 years ago, I had no purity ceremony with my father. However, everyone and their dogs knew I was a capital V virgin. Unfortunately, despite my devoutness, raging hormones meant I more accurately could’ve taken the vow on Rick’s site. Needless to say, for me, the path I took ended up being more detrimental than helpful. I wasn’t very mature where sex and relationships were concerned and if I’d ever had children, I’d hope they’d be better realistically prepared. But I understand that not everyone subscribes to that theory and those who feel that remaining chaste until you’re wed is the only way to go.
However…
I don’t think either of our positions are exactly what anyone here is taking issue with. It’s the idea of a public, lauded announcement of a promise that someone at the prescribed age may not even have a clue about. That their father comes across as more interested in it than might be normal. That there isn’t some sort of equivalent ceremony for boys. And there seems to be nothing in between the black and white, the imposition of other people into a very private affair and, lastly, an almost impossible expectation that is set up in a way that really isn’t the business of all that end up involved. IE: like the church of said family. That’s just my guess.
Oh, and also, as far as things like weddings go, that is between two consenting adults. None of which contains a child who cannot make grown-up decisions as of yet on their own. YMMV.
I don’t have kids, but if I did, I would NOT expect them to remain virgins till they got married. That’s so 19th century. Modelling integrity and accountability doesn’t have any necessary connection to chastity. I’m not saying kids should go out and sleep around, but a little sexual experimentation is a good thing, I think. I am heartily glad I knew several guys (in the Biblical sense) before I got married.
YMMV, of course. But I’m seeing a real resurgence in this country of attitudes apparently intended to keep women under male control, and I bloody well goddam hate that shit.
Cripes. I thought we fought and won these frackin’ battles last century. Jeezopete.
Just imagine, for a moment, what would happen in that house if the daughter refused to take such an oath.
This, to me, is the pittance of these such events.
There is a difference between teaching and imposing, just as there is a difference between exposing and indoctrinating. A father who wants to set an example for integrity and accountability does not need a (literally) paternalistic, anachronistic pledge to do so.
Do girls that make these “Virginity Pledges”- and stick by them- have more trouble finding boyfriends (or partners) than girls who don’t?
I mean, for most 16-18yo guys, if a girl he likes says “Sorry, no sex until we’re married”, then he’s either likely to A) Put the pressure on her in some other way, or B) Simply say “OK, bye!”.
I know these are generalisations, but I honestly can’t see “Virginity Pledges” leading to anything but trouble for both parties.
Oh, and “giving myself to my Husband as a gift on our wedding night”? Ugh. Reeks of “Women are property!” and is definitely NOT OK in my book.
For completeness’s sake, I’d include the equation of “purity” with “virginity”. (You’ve already got the whole “only women seem to be defiled by sex, so only girls need to be worried about their ‘purity’” thing mentioned by noting the lack of equivalent ritualistic statements for boys.)
(As far as I’m concerned, “impure” sexuality is sexuality that is coerced, abusive, joyless, degrading, insincere …)
Isn’t that in and of itself a kind of pressure? Seems to me we’ve come to a place where nearly all the expectation is on this side of things, in terms of “everybody’s doing it, what’s wrong with you?” So, just a thought, how does one combat that?
I’m not crazy about that wording, but I do approve of the idea that intimacy at that level is something that is special enough to be shared with only a spouse, given, if you will, to only that one person. I don’t see it as a proprietary thing.
And yes, I really do think that this should be equally done with the boys, too. Maybe even more so, since we still have this perception that guys are just “supposed to” have sex when they can get it. I know things are changing a lot, but there is still that difference in attitude, to a certain extent. I did teach my son the same things as I have been teaching my daughters, but it didn’t really take with him. He was sexually active at 17. I wish I’d been able to get through to him better.
Oh, and while I understand that there are some Christians out there who do some silly or harmful things (some of them very harmful), I really wish you guys would not be so quick to jump to conclusions about all of them. I’d guess this pledge is going to make things more difficult than need be for some of these girls, but in those cases I really doubt the pledge itself will make a big difference. Please don’t assume that all, or even most, of these fathers will be mean or judgemental or totally non-understanding when or if their daughters mess this up. People do things that you wouldn’t do, or that you don’t approve of. That doesn’t make them monsters, or even uncaring parents.
3d W, I believe you’re doing what you think is best by your children, and encouraging them to make the healthiest choices they can. I have no problem with that. But I swear to you now, if I reach the end of days and find out Jesus actually cares one whit what a woman does with that thang, I will kick him in the nuts and gladly go straight to hell.
Darn good point. I’d love it if the fathers had said if they were virgins at marriage.
I’m sure glad that our wedding day wasn’t our first time. We had enough to worry about without that. Not to mention it being nice knowing we were compatible. Our daughters grew up knowing this was their decision, and not getting any lies from us about it either.
Sleeping with a fiance or in a committed relationship is a lot different from promiscuity - and I don’t see the distinction in these kinds of pledges.
I don’t think this thread is criticizing all Christians. The criticisms seem to be directed at placing a child in the position of having to make a decision that she is probably not prepared to make and doing so in public in the form of a pledge. It is age inappropriate.
Certainly fathers should be good role models. I had one of the best. He taught me to believe in my own strength and to rely on myself. It bothers me that this program smacks so much of male dominance. Where are the mothers? They are missing from this program as much as the male children. It’s all very sexist. To me that is sinful.
So did I when I was 10-11 yrs old.
Had a different perspective on the issue when I was 17 though.
… as far as you know.
… as far as you know.
thirdwarning, like everyone else, I don’t object to a parent’s decision to teach their child their own values, or any girl’s (informed, age-appropriate) decision to forego sex until marriage.
I object **strongly ** to the implication that a girl’s sexuality is something that belongs not to her, but to the men around her. That it’s something for her father to guard and supress until it’s time to hand it off to her husband, at which time it becomes his to do with as he will.
A vagina is not a shiny collectible toy that depreciates unless it’s kept “mint in it’s original packaging.”.
That is a beautiful sig-line, if I ever saw one.
Thank you. I’ve been trying to put my finger on what bothers me about this pledge movement, and you just summed it up beautifully.
An equally important point is that a young woman’s self-esteem and self-respect are not in danger when she has sex in a balanced, loving, committed, unmarried relationship. At least in this country, the marriage ceremony comes well after the marriage relationship. On their wedding night, is the husband truly grateful to his wife’s father for preserving her virginity for him? And if he is, does that degrade her more as a person than if she had had more than one sexual partner before marrying her husband?
Vlad/Igor
I said specifically in the OP that this refers to SOME christians, and even mentioned that I AM a christian. The point is that somehow, someway, my parents were able to teach me their conservative christian values and somehow someway, they sunk in WITHOUT them dragging me into public to make a speech to 400 people.