Fear Itself, Don't Give Legal Advice When You Don't Know What You're Talking About

Nutty Bunny would be well advised to look at Long Time Lurker’s posts here, especially #43, for an approach to an actual answer to her question. I know, for a fact, that NYS Supreme Court (“superior court” almost anywhere else) will sustain noncompete agreements under at least some circumstances, and would recommend that Bunny at minimum look up the principles established in case law, and if unsure go talk to a lawyer first. (IANAL, this is not legal advice, and all the usual disclaimers.)

I was tangentially involved in a very close parallel case that was taken to Appellate Division before being finally resolved. I worked for a state agency that had aided a town(ship) to obtain a Federal grant, and was administering the expenditure of the grant in the town’s behalf. The particular professional employee who had written the successful grant application was the man doing the administration.

As time passed, that employee established his own consulting business, performing the same services for other communities not within the agency’s service area. Eventually he resigned from the state agency, and worked his consulting business full time. I handled the technical paperwork for him at the state agency, and when he “went private” moonlighted for him in the same capacity.

The town in question wanted to keep working with him, not the agency, as they had great respect for his abilities. He initially declined to do so, as there was a provision in State Ethics Law forbidding him from performing the same service for a fee with the same client as he had performed that service for as a state employee. This was, I understand, created to keep professionals from setting up sweetheart deals while on the state payroll and then retiring or resigning to benefit from them, and was slangily referred to as the “revolving door” clause.

In this case, however, the majority of the administration moneys had been paid out to the state already, but the work was not yet finished, and the grant not closed out properly. So the Town Supervisor (CEO) contacted the agency and asked them to withdraw from administration of the grant, and release the ex-employee from the non-compete-equivalent clause. They agreed and the town contracted with him to finish the grant administration. (Ironically, the amount of hours he had to put in to finish the admin. work and close out the grant, and the funds left, meant that he received what was effectively minimum wage for his efforts.)

Some time later, he was contacted by investigators for the State Ethics Commission. As it turned out years later, a vengeful state employee who disliked him had registered a complaint that he was violating the “revolving door” clause. An Ethics Commission administrative law tribunal found against him, he appealed it to Supreme Court, which held for him, and then the Ethics Commission took it to Appellate Division, which commended his willingness to help the town at effectively no profit to himself but stated there was a technical violation of one element of the law, for which they assessed a minimal fine.

So I can speak from personal experience (albeit not as a direct participant, but as someone involved throughout the entire process) that how such laws will apply is very intricate and subject to a lot of legal nuance.

Fear, your statement was true in exactly the same way as “the First Amendment guarantees unlimited freedom of speech” is true: a high-minded generality but one that does not address the specifics that may concern Nutty Bunny. Sure, she has every right to go to work for the client. But she might not like the idea of defending a lawsuit for the equivalent of five years’ salary for violating a case in which the courts will uphold a non-compete clause. Just as I can say anything I like about you – if I don’t mind being subject to a libel suit if I injure your reputation or income-gaining ability by knowingly stating a falsehood about you. Likewise, Nutty Bunny needs to be aware of (1) whether she is in fact subject to a non-compete clause, and (2) whether it’s enforceable in her particular case.

And Jodi as always a masterly performance. (There should be a non-sexist adjective for “masterly” but my thesaurical skills have never found a good one.)

Magisterial.

Good pitting Jodi! I’m not a lawyer…yet. Just started my final year in law school and even without my license it drives me absolutely batty when I see people on the boards giving out legal advice when they have no business doing so.

There was a thread awhile back started by a poster freaked out because he thought he was going to be arrested for theft because his place of employment was robbed, or something along those lines. There were posters telling him to turn himself in, to talk, not to talk and all sorts of other stuff. Some going as far as to tell him the legal consequences of different proposed courses of action. If the poster chose to take any of this advice he could have faced criminal consequences. Did that stop these armchair lawyers from giving their opinions? Of course not! I almost lost my shit in that thread.

There is a reason lawyers need so much education before being allowed to practice law, people.

Yeah, but you can’t trust his advice; he’s only quasi-motivated to give good advice! :stuck_out_tongue:

Fear Itself, you’re a child who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Take this thread as a lesson and apply it later, and be damned grateful for everyone here giving you a free education. You really aren’t worth it.

Now go away and play. The adults are talking.

Not only are you rude, but you completely miss the point. :rolleyes:

Although this is an Internet message board, you can still receive useful advice and see where to find out more.

When the lawyers here post cites, give legal refences and issue cautions about consulting a expert lawyer in the jurisdiction, that’s great.
If someone says ‘I don’t know the law, but you should be able to do that’, it’s a comment.
When **Fear Itself ** posts on legal matters, we can only shudder.

I’m not a lawyer but I am a chess professional.
I enjoy reading everyones’ opinions in chess threads and will happily add my expert advice (which unlike legal advice can’t cost money or start criminal proceedings).
I am peeved by people who don’t have my years of experience or qualifications making statements on chess that are not correct.

Jodi, I think I started posting here during your sabbatical, so I don’t know you from your prior posting history. Lord help me, though, you’re a treat, and this pitting is very well done.

The legal threads in GQ are very disappointing because of the handful of posters who persist in posting guesses, then defend to the death their right to make stuff up, to post without citation, or to post with citation only to something unpersuasive. And who then become defensive when called upon their crap. And then how are people to know which answers they should listen to?

Thank you for not giving up. I don’t have the patience and so I mostly stay out.

glee, I agree with you, but what I find most upsetting is that Key Lime Guy utterly failed to comprehend what was being said in the two threads, and yet purported to write an “explanation” that bears no relationship to what the lawyers were saying. I have to believe that there are others out there who lack whatever it is – reading comprehension, critical thinking skills – to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.

We ought to have more rigor in GQ, and I don’t care if you claim to be a lawyer or not – don’t guess, and post a cite if called upon to do so.

You know, I’ve never understood the point of giving legal advice or discussing legal issues when you’re not being paid for it-or when it takes away from valuable billing time. A lesson I learned ONLY after I started practicing and having to take annoying calls from “clients” (they are not my clients but that’s for lack of a better term). Part of why I never really stick around for legal advice is that I consider it highly unethical to use the research tools I have at my disposal to fight with people on the internet. Am I the only one whose Lexis/Westlaw usage gets scrutinised??? I realise my employer monitors everything about me but I can’t believe that you’d get away with using lexis for personal stuff in the private sector. I would get in a lot of trouble if I did such things and were found out.

As such you’re relegated to either offering statements on general principals of law, testing the bounds of Google, or stating the ever so popular “get a lawyer.”

I am permitted and even encouraged to use Lexis or Westlaw for personal stuff, or stuff I am just interested in, or to browse or whatever. My employer, for good or ill, considers that part of me keeping my legal skills up to date, and also recognizes that there are things we as lawyers become interested in that we cannot, in good conscience, charge a client for. So I am permitted to use those tools for personal research.

As for the rest, I actually do find the law fascinating. Researching something for the board is a bit of a busman’s holiday, but I’m kind of a dork that way, and I suspect I’m not alone. :slight_smile:

I know for a fact that I’d get in a lot of trouble. Then again, the chances that anyone is going to ask a question on the obscure and highly specialised field I practice in are none to none and I wouldn’t even need Lexis to answer it.

I’m still waiting for that day with bated breath, though.

Yet another difference between working in the public and private sectors. :slight_smile:

I could never go work in the private sector. I suspect you’d feel the same day if you came and worked in my office.

All jokes aside, my work does actually force me to interact with private firm attorneys (these are the annoying “clients” I was talking about, even though my actual client is sort of an amorphous concept) and I’m always amazed at the differences. For instance…you actually have to talk to the people who are paying you. They’re real people! And they call up and whine! Not nebulous entities that exist in theory…or in a land far far away (across the country in federal buildings).

But you forgot to mention the biggest difference between us…our salaries :slight_smile: (and the fact that I might be compelled to pee in a cup…though I hear that’s getting more popular on your side too)

Nope. For the reason stated below:

From friends who’ve made the move, though, I understand that the biggest culture shock isn’t the pay cut; it’s that I have an unlimited supply of paper clips, staples, pads, highlighters in all the colors of the rainbow, etc. Oh, yes. Life is good in the private sector. :smiley:

Then we are at an impasse, because I find your (and the other lawyers’) reading comprehension utterly lacking.

If you review the original thread, you’ll see that the OP was NOT asking for legal advice, she was asking for similar experiences. Fear Itself DID have a similar experience, as he explained in post #6 of the thread.

And then when the thread did indeed turn away from experience to legal advice, Fear Itself was THE ONLY POSTER to specifically reference outside literature (which he did twice, in posts #11 and #46) that would be useful to the OP.

Nope, have all of that. But I specialise in creating paper trails.

You can keep your highlighters…I’ll keep my guvmint billables and…life :stuck_out_tongue:

Some firms pay by usage, whereas others pay by flat rate.

My firm pays a flat rate, so as long as I docket to files where appropriate, it does not cost anything extra to use Quicklaw/LexisNexis for personal research. I only do such personal research on evenings and weekends, so as to not cut into billable time.

This made me laugh because it made me feel very, very old. You see, oh young grasshopper attorneys, in the old days we were taught to look up the answers in portable information recepticles made of paper and glue. They were called “books”. :slight_smile: If one had access to these “books,” one could generally find out information on a given legal topice (in one’s own jurisidiction) without incurring any fee to one’s employer. I have nothing but respect for you ANU-LA, but I found it very funny (and perhaps telling?) that in your list of ways in which to research a topic, looking it up in a book wass not even included.

In all seriousness, perhaps in modern private law firms, books and paper services are not even maintained anymore? As a goverrnment attorney, I have been fortunate throughout my career to be in close proximity to a law library – not like a firm’s collection, but a real university or state law library – but I can certainly see how someone whose only research resource is Westlaw or Lexis would consider it the better part of valour to never offer a legal opinion outside of work at all.

I’m afraid any cursory reading of the thread will reveal that it is not our reading comprehension skills that are deficient, but your own. The very title of the thread is “A client stole me from my employer. Is there a liability issue?” In light of this, it is hard to imagine how you can claim she wasn’t asking for if not advice, at least a legal opinion as to her situation. In fact, it would be hard to come up with a question that more clearly solicits legal advice or opinion than “Is there a liability issue”.

The advice FEAR ITSELF was giving her was at best incomplete and at worst wrong. Why you would give him extra credit for having a citation for his incomplete/wrong opinion is beyond me.

Given enough time, enough keyboards, and enough monkeys, the correct answer may eventually be typed up. So here we have a monkey scampering about, ever so pleased in thinking that it is the nth monkey and that it wrote the correct answer.

But the answer was not correct, and it is only the nth – 1 monkey. No banana.

The problem is, you can’t explain this to a monkey.

At my firm, in northern Ontario, we have a minimal paper library – essentially just looseleaf services for specific practice areas, and our local bar association’s librar, while tremendously useful, is a far cry from being comprehensive.

The statutes are available on-line for free or via pay services.

Case law is available on-line via pay services, and increasingly it is available on-line for free.

Increasingly, pay services are offering looseleafs, texts and newsletters on-line.

The closest comprehensive law library in my jurisdiction is a thousand miles away, so on-line services are a lifesaver for me.

Um… yeah.

The thread is posted in GQ, the forum which solicts factual answers to questions. The thread is titled “A client stole me from my employer. Is there a liability issue?” You conclude that she’s merely asking for similar experiences, not any sort of legal analysis. But sure, your reading comprehension is the one to be proud of.