Fellow atheists? What evidence might convince you there is a god?

Not necessarily. You may assume things that may not be true.

Specifically, it seems to me that you assume that if God were not an Entity (experiences the passage of time, has thoughts on Tuesday that are later developments of lines of thought that started on Monday and continues to mull them over through Friday, has a personality, a self that can be isolated from all other selves, God the Individual), God would lack a consciousness; that such an existence would be less than the existence of God as Entity.

I don’t conceptualize it as less than. Consciousness is a subaspect of something that is much larger, as are all forms of individual Self.

We think of Selves (ourselves or God as an Individual Self) as “in” the world when actually we are a part of it, such that everything that is true of us is an aspect of the world because we are an aspect of the world. God has consciousness insofar as consciousness is of God; and consciousness of God means not merely God as subject or object (“We are conscious of God”) but also ownership. Almost like a Unix file system ownership, consciousness is of God, owned by God, it’s a root level function even if you have permissions allowing you to execute it locally.

Scroll back and you’ll notice that I’ve spoken of prayer, as a real not a nonreal phenomenon.

But God is not an Entity, a Creature, a Dude, a Wise Old Man, or any other flavor of mere Individual Self, and to be conscious need not be the same thing as to “think thoughts”, and certainly does not need to be less than that.

Are you saying that all consciousness is connected, and the venue of that connectedness is the metaconsciousness that is god?

I am open to the concept of prayer having power, but that in no way requires a belief in god.

From what I can gather of the ideas you are presenting here, you do believe in god, but you do not believe that god is omnipotent. Is that correct?

How about how Sagan did it in the book ‘Contact’?

The creator of the universe left messages far far ‘in’ the decimals of irrational numbers like Pi. Now you can debate whether creator of the universe=God but the effect is that there is something tangible there and it puts the existance of God as a real possibility.

I think that is all that is needed. A series of tangible events that closes the gap.

Say God announces himself to the Earth with a message that appears out of the air in many languages…could be aliens…could be God…could be who knows?

Say resurrections start happening. My father comes back. Is he REALLY my father? Could be, maybe not…

Say all sick people are healed on the Earth instantaneously. Hmmm…

Proof that ghosts who are the people who died exist…that would show that there is something that exists of people beyond death…the gap closes for believing in God.

You quickly reach a point where, while maybe not 100% sure it seems more absurd to disbelieve than to believe.

If something exists, its effect should be measurable.

In fact, something as simple as a controlled, easily reproducible experiment where people being prayed for recover from life threatening illnesses over people not being prayed for would shake my disbelief (this has been tried I think). It wouldn’t take much to make me rethink my athiesm…but you have to give me something.

“Connected” might be a good word or it might be a misleading word, depending on what it conveys to you.

I saw things differently one day; prior to that, and a significant portion of the time subsequent to that as well, I saw things from a more commonplace perspective. The more commonplace perspective isn’t wrong, exactly, so much as it simply isn’t the only way to comprehend something. In some ways it’s like those big portraits that are composed of much smaller photographs, and after years of only seeing a large collection of photographs one day you see (literally in this example) the big picture. It doesn’t, at that point, cease to be a bunch of smaller individual pictures though, nor was it ever wrong to see it as a bunch of smaller individual pictures. But once you see it the other way, you suddenly have a different, equally valid, answer to the question [::points at one of the smaller images::] “What is that”? And so you say “It’s Thomas Jefferson. Not in and of itself, I mean it is obviously a reproduction of a woodcut of the Declaration of Independence, but it is also Thomas Jefferson, and so is everything else on this entire page.”

I’m babbling. Sorry.

“Connected” — are all the limes and the oranges of the world connected?

It’s…uh, sorry, gotta babble again.

“Omnipotent” tends to imply (to me at any rate) that there is an actor, an intelligent individual entity with a will and an intent taking action, action that cannot be opposed.

I can see how Caesar Augustus could be described as omnipotent. I can see how one could argue that Caesar Augustus is nothing of the sort (“Can Caesar make the oceans freeze over with a single gesture?”). The term makes sense because it is falsifiable, yes? OK, but is the universe omnipotent?

Consider the premise that the universe is here (or just “is”, since “here” doesn’t contribute much to this sentence) “on purpose”; that, while there is neither a disembodied comic-book SuperBrain floating around in mid-Cosmos nor a paternal bearded God on a Throne somewhere to be the “location” where GodConsciousness is (as opposed to where it’s not), our consciousness is a manifestation of the larger all-encompassing conscousness which is GodConsciousness.

Not in the “whole as sum of its many parts” sense like the Thomas Jefferson pic made of little pix (which are different from it and have their own separate meaning), but in some ways similar to that.

More the way that society is made up of you and me and other individuals. Society, you could say, is an abstraction; I can tap you on the shoulder, I can’t tap society, and if I remove all individuals from the set there’s nothing left over to point to and call “society”. And yet society is in you and me and the other individuals; our perspectives, belief systems, concepts for making sense of things, the language we use to describe meaning to ourselves and each other, and the meaning that things and events have for us due to context and purpose — it’s all social. And so you can’t easily remove society from the individuals and point and say “Aha, here’s the nature of the individual unto itself”.

Now, if that’s making good clear sense to you, hop out one more level. If “I” am an individual person — a valid sense of self, describing something that’s entirely real — and “we” are society, an equally valid sense of self, an abstraction, yes, but a damned real one nevertheless, and one without which you don’t really understand the prior level, kick it up a notch and conceptualize a sense of self that is all-inclusive. That Which Is. Of course “it” is conscious, insofar as you are conscious and it is you. “Omnipotent”? In comparison with what adversary or barrier?

Oh, why not? Sure, I’ll use that word. The universe could be other than it is and is therefore not what it is as a consequence of being unable to be other.

Everything leading up to this, and including it, I could accept. I don’t, but I could. But assuming I did, that still would not require me to believe in any kind of god. In fact, I don’t see anything in your post up to this point that is even related to god. It sounds more like the Tao to me, which I find almost palatable, though regarding the “universal essence”, I am an agnostic. Regarding god, I am an atheist.

Here we part ways drastically. My worldview is diametrically opposed to this sentiment.

Though I do find your posts interesting, and appreciate the effort you went to in conveying your concept of God. I disagree that the concepts you posit are related to the commonly accepted understanding of the term “god”, but that’s more of a semantic debate. In other words, not relevant.

Fair enough. I get the feeling from your post of having been understood if not agreed with, which is rare and quite pleasant in and of itself. Mostly when I try to engage with either theists or atheists that just doesn’t happen.