Fellow liberals, stop generalizing about the tea party

[YogSothoth]

@John_Mace

No. That’s 1% more than would have been projected w/o the HCR law. Now, this certainly isn’t the be all and end all of analysis, but it shows that 1) Reasonable people can disagree about the goodness of this bill, and 2) it’s no slam dunk that this is going to be good, politically, for the Dems.

And Elvis, the “source” is the Associated Press, not me.

No, REPUBLICANS have said the bill is socialist, facist, tyrannical, marxist, and communist. NOWHERE have I heard them claim that the bill will increase costs of 1% over 10 years. If they had stated that from the beginning, I wouldn’t be shitting on them. But when you pull out the socialist card, then that person becomes a fucktard that deserves to be ignored or ridiculed.

If you want to take issue with what I said and raise honest concerns, I’d be more than happy to have a civil discussion with you. I don’t have a problem with a 1% increase over 10 years. I would rather that and 34 million people be covered than save 1% and leave 34 million people to fend for themselves. So your objection is noted, but the benefits outweigh the costs.

And it’s not so much as what I “know”, but what the the AP said had little to do with my Step 3 that you quoted. Given the Republican’s spendthrift ways in the last decade, their actions belie their true feelings. I don’t think for a second they care about spending as much as they want to pretend for the cameras that they do. That is why I “know” that the only reason the Republicans voted against the health bill is that it will be a positive thing for Americans and that when Americans realize that, they will overwhelmingly vote Democratic. That’s what I know

Now what your object is seems not to what I posted, but to a tangent about costs. Well, I don’t “know” about the costs, I got my information from the CBO, which projected that the health care reform bill will net America a savings of over $100 billion over the next 10 years. That’s what I know. Now the AP disagrees and it’s their findings. That’s fine. The difference between the CBO and the AP seems to be the estimates of how generous the Medicare cuts will be. No surprise that the White House would take the high range and the AP cautions the low range. But you see, that is real debate.

The hot air coming from the Republican Tea Bagging party is that it’s tyranny. That’s a long long way from a disagreement in the generosity of future Medicare cuts.

We’re all adult here, you know that the above statement’s not going to make it to the cable news rounds, it’s not going to spawn a catchy and memorable soundbite, and ultimately people will ignore that. So people like the Tea Baggers say the insane things they do because otherwise they feel ignored.

Again, TOUGH SHIT.

When your position is stupid, pointless, wrong, or insane, you deserve to be ignored or ridiculed. Maybe if they had the balls to let Americans decide for themselves honestly if the health care bill is good or not, they wouldn’t need to threaten to kill Congressmen or confront drivers with Obama bumper stickers.

[Squink]

@John_Mace

No. That’s 1% more than would have been projected w/o the HCR law.

What’s the signal to noise ratio on that study?
A difference indistinguisable from the baseline does not merit the six sigma declaration found in the headline.
Seems to me that the Associated Press is engaging in purposeful deception with their slant in that article.

[John_Mace]

@YogSosoth

No, REPUBLICANS have said the bill is socialist, facist, tyrannical, marxist, and communist. NOWHERE have I heard them claim that the bill will increase costs of 1% over 10 years. If they had stated that from the beginning, I wouldn’t be shitting on them. But when you pull out the socialist card, then that person becomes a fucktard that deserves to be ignored or ridiculed.

Perhaps you only hear what you want to hear. Now, the 1% increase deal is something that was just recently reported, but 2 seconds on google finds, from back in November:

This report confirms what virtually every independent expert has been saying: Speaker Pelosi’s health care bill will increase costs, not decrease them,” said Rep. Dave Camp, the ranking Republican on the House Ways and Means Committee.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@John_Mace

Perhaps you only hear what you want to hear.

Perhaps he hears the crap about “tyranny” that is shouted from the rooftops by babbling idiots and repeated by talking heads, rather than nuanced debatable reports that the teabaggers have probably never even read.

[CannyDan]

@Euphonious_Polemic

Perhaps he hears the crap about “tyranny” that is shouted from the rooftops by babbling idiots and repeated by talking heads, rather than nuanced debatable reports that the teabaggers have probably never even read.

Especially so since the amorphous bill’s November incarnations were only loosely related to that finally passed. But the nutters’ claims haven’t changed one bit.

Oh, and why otherwise are we to take as gospel the word of a Republican mouthpiece? From November? As support for a recent AP article?

C’mon, John, you’re better than that.

[A.Selene]

@YogSosoth

Step 1: Denounce all Tea Baggers, every single one of them. It doesn’t matter that some of them aren’t violent racist extremists, the entire group is tainted like fish left out in the sun too long. The whole Tea Bagger group must be eliminated and to do that, there needs to be unequivocal denouncement of their violent, extremist, and evil ways.

It does have a bit of an odor, but you’re going too far here. I’ll be charitable, and give you extremist, even though I don’t think their vague ideas and platitudes are all that extreme (the timing is suspect however). But violent? Evil? I know some people that have gone to rallies, and was even invited to go (I declined). They were neither violent nor evil people.

Step 2: Confess that it was Republicans who actually ran up the debt, first bailed out the banks, and got us into this economic shithole, because Bush and the GOP were in charge for years and presided over a lot of what is wrong with this country.

100% behind you here, and I think that is part of the tea baggers, as best as I can tell. While it leans very right, I don’t see it as explicitly Republican - the baggers are too focused on the Dems, cause the Pubbies are just as much (though I’d say more) at fault.

Step 3: Stop lying about Obama, his policies, liberals, and everything in general. Tell people the truth: Pubbies only voted against health care because it is a good bill that would help Americans, and when Americans realize that, they will flock to Democrats like a fat kid to cake

As John has mentioned, there are legitimate reasons to be wary of the health care package.

Step 4: Take an election cycle off. Your party is full of extremists and hateful shitheads. Don’t even have a nominee for President in 2012, or if you do, nominate Ron Paul

Step 5: All of the above stuff is hard, but this step will simultaneously be the easiest and hardest thing for a Republican to do: Be honest, truthful, and have integrity.

Until then, fuck the Republican Tea Bagger party

Hateful shitheads? Little strong there. They are regular people, your next door neighbors, that happen to have differing ideas than you do about how to best organize society here in the US. It’s the Pit, so I guess a little RO is expected, but you could scale it back a little.

Disclaimer: I am not a Republican.

[ElvisL1ves]

@CannyDan

C’mon, John, you’re better than that.

The weight of the evidence, pal.

[CannyDan]

@ElvisL1ves

The weight of the evidence, pal.

Huh?

I was offering basic agreement with Euphonious Polemic and gently chiding John (Mace) for presenting a recent article, and supporting it with an outdated and transparently political statement.

I have no idea where you came in, or what “evidence” you’re alluding to. Sorry.

[Squink]

@ElvisL1ves

The weight of the evidence, pal.

LOL!

[YogSothoth]

@John_Mace

Perhaps you only hear what you want to hear. Now, the 1% increase deal is something that was just recently reported, but 2 seconds on google finds, from back in November:

That was before the CBO came out. In November, they were months away from finalizing the bill.

@A.Selene

It does have a bit of an odor, but you’re going too far here. I’ll be charitable, and give you extremist, even though I don’t think their vague ideas and platitudes are all that extreme (the timing is suspect however). But violent? Evil? I know some people that have gone to rallies, and was even invited to go (I declined). They were neither violent nor evil people.

Enough of them are violent and evil that I cannot simply give them a pass. I think that often, it is very useful to judge a group by their own standards, to see what kind of hypocrisy they truly stand for. These people shout Muslim at Obama as if it’s a bad word, yet where are the Fox News talking heads praising moderate Muslims and defending Islam? Now they want us to notice all of these silent, invisible, majority non-insane Tea Baggers? Again, I don’t want to judge them with a broad brush, I truly wish we could have civil discussions between us, but the fact is their loudest and richest supporters are also the dumbest, most racist, and violent. You may not have witnessed it at your rally, but there is enough of a plurality of evil racists in that party to cause nationwide fears of death threats from Pennsylvania to California. Your experience, according to most news accounts, is in the extreme minority

@A.Selene

Hateful shitheads? Little strong there. They are regular people, your next door neighbors, that happen to have differing ideas than you do about how to best organize society here in the US. It’s the Pit, so I guess a little RO is expected, but you could scale it back a little.

Differing ideas do not extend to the kind of mad rhetoric spewed by these people. Every time I hear tyranny, communist, socialist, or facist, these people deserve to be kicked in the stomach. For every misspelled sign with swastikas or Hitler mustaches, they deserved to be punched in the face. Are they all like that? No, but a huge number of them are, and those loudmouths are the ones getting on TV and being broadcasted. If the news should start tomorrow showing respectful, peaceful marches, or debates where they aren’t shouting shit at people, I’ll start to change my mind. If the people who organized the Tea Baggers like Fox News start saying they simply disagreed with Obama, instead of him being a commie fascist Muslim lizard person, then I’ll tone it down.

I find it funny that now people like me who are pissed, but in the wrong political party, are now maligned by some who don’t really support the enemy. What do liberals and independents think is the biggest problem of liberals over the past few years? That we’re pussies, we don’t stand up for our beliefs, that we let Republicans roll over us? Well shit, here’s a liberal who’s not afraid to tell those Pubbie fuckers to shove it, that they’re evil dickheads, and they foment violence, and that they’re all closet racists. I’m a liberal who’s sick and tired of my party and my ideology’s representatives not forcing the issue and standing up more for our beliefs.

We are true Americans. Not the Tea Bagger seditionist traitors. If there is a true disagreement to Obama’s policy, then it doesn’t exist in the realm of the Tea Bagger movement.

[John_Mace]

@CannyDan

I was offering basic agreement with Euphonious Polemic and gently chiding John (Mace) for presenting a recent article, and supporting it with an outdated and transparently political statement.

I purposely picked something from back in that timeframe because I believe that’s the time period we were talking about. And I don’t see how that’s a “transparently political statement”. The fact is, reasonable people can disagree on this whole HCR issue. Certainly many Republicans spent too much time talking about “socialism” and “death panels”, but the poster I was responding to made it sound like that was all that was said. It wasn’t.

@YogSosoth

That was before the CBO came out. In November, they were months away from finalizing the bill.

I was responding to the post where you said:

If they had stated that from the beginning, I wouldn’t be shitting on them.

“From the beginning” usually doesn’t mean “at the end”.

[YogSothoth]

@John_Mace

I was responding to the post where you said:

“From the beginning” usually doesn’t mean “at the end”.

Well I was more referring to honest debate. If they had been simply touting that months ago and not the tyranny shit, if guys like Tom Coburn didn’t pray for the death of a fellow Senator, then I would have been fine with the civil disagreement. But that is not what they said and by continuing to lie or mislead people afterwards, and calling Obama fascist and all that other crap, they lose all credibility with me and hopefully other liberals.

The fact that the final bill had nothing but watered down capitalistic stuff should have been one indication that the name-calling wasn’t exactly accurate, but they’ve continued.

And don’t mistake this as one instance in one bill that they got wrong. I voted for a Republican as recent as 2 elections ago for a California state position so while I disliked them, I see that some of them are good and competent people. I don’t know exactly what month is was, but during the summer of 2009, I had an epiphany. Months and months of this birther shit and communist crap wears on a person, and I saw that the Republican party has been hopelessly overtaken by extremists. I will never vote for a Republican again. As far as I’m concerned, the dumbest Democrat is smarter than the smartest Republican. Their party is tainted, they are an instutition of sedition and evil now and there is no going back. Until they purge the fringe elements that run the show, no Republican will ever deserve to be in office in my eyes.

[eleanorigby]

I have to say I’m amused by the disingenuousness of the GOP and its backers right now. Heck, I even admire it on a certain level.

This faction of the American population was courted heavily and intensely by the GOP back in the days of Reagan (your saint and idol) and others. The GOP wanted the numbers that the middle class, white, socially conservative, evangelical/fundamentalist “Christian” (as opposed to Prostestant) had. They were wooed by the Reps. Seriously, what did the GOP expect?

And here we are. IMO, if the GOP ever wants to get my respect (or my vote–I have voted for Reps in the past), they need to denounce strongly, stridently and completely any and all of the racist, sectarian nonsense spewed by these people. I have no respect for the Tea Party–a “movement” that seems to know precious little about American history and seems self-absorbed to a pathological degree. Sarah Palin is a perfect spokeswoman for them–vacuous, inane and ill informed.

Please show me the learned essays penned by Tea Partiers; polemics and editorials clearly delineating their stance on issues of the day. I’d love to read one not written in crayon and misspelled.

[Oakminster]

@YogSosoth

But when you pull out the socialist card,

you have to tap 6 land, at least 2 of which must be Red. Or, you may play the card face down as a 2/2 creature, and turn it face up at anytime by paying it’s Morph cost.

Effect: Each other player loses two lands. One actual physical land card must be destroyed, and the other must be given to you. For keeps. In 7 turns, if you are still alive, everybody loses.

[Knorf]

Wow, well said eleanorigby!

I actually used to be a registered Republican, but now I agree with you totally.

[Harborwolf]

@eleanorigby

Please show me the learned essays penned by Tea Partiers; polemics and editorials clearly delineating their stance on issues of the day. I’d love to read one not written in crayon and misspelled.

I’d settle for a stance on anything. Even the tea partiers in this thread are either unable or outright avoiding stating a position on anything besides being for common sense and being angry at the government. Beyond that they’re an amorphous collective that wants to distance itself from their more racist and violent members but not too publicly or too far.

And is it me or should the tea party change it’s name to the No True Scotsmen. Based upon the rally I went to, the previous republican administration weren’t real republicans and that’s why what they did doesn’t count. The racist minority that appears at their rallies doesn’t count because that’s not what the tea party is about. Likewise the more violent elements. It’s getting to the point where anyone who has political views differing from the tea partier you are talking to, or who is not able to sound intelligent while speaking of the [del]tremendous lack of[/del] views/ideas of the tea party movement is not a real tea partier. I think the whole tea party movement was founded on the principle of having absolutely no true scotsmen.

[YogSothoth]

@Oakminster

you have to tap 6 land, at least 2 of which must be Red. Or, you may play the card face down as a 2/2 creature, and turn it face up at anytime by paying it’s Morph cost.

Effect: Each other player loses two lands. One actual physical land card must be destroyed, and the other must be given to you. For keeps. In 7 turns, if you are still alive, everybody loses.

Not if I get my Platinum Angel card out first

[kaylasdad99]

I thought you were of the male persuasion, YogSosoth.

[eleanorigby]

@Harborwolf

And is it me or should the tea party change it’s name to the No True Scotsmen. Based upon the rally I went to, the previous republican administration weren’t real republicans and that’s why what they did doesn’t count. The racist minority that appears at their rallies doesn’t count because that’s not what the tea party is about. Likewise the more violent elements. It’s getting to the point where anyone who has political views differing from the tea partier you are talking to, or who is not able to sound intelligent while speaking of the [del]tremendous lack of[/del] views/ideas of the tea party movement is not a real tea partier. I think the whole tea party movement was founded on the principle of having absolutely no true scotsmen.

True enough. They do seem to be shape shifters. I don’t agree with everything the Dems have as a platform, and I sure as hell disapprove the Rep platform. But at least they have platforms. There is some substance (bloviated, watered down, hackneyed, true) to base an opinion on. The Tea Partiers have nothing. NOTHING. They are the sound byte/instant message reactionary culture taken to its logical conclusion: if you’re not for us, you’re against us and if you have to ask what we’re for, you aren’t one of us.
How’s that again? :rolleyes:
Odd how they didn’t feel the need to “rebel” when the Gment flat out lied to us, took us to war against the wrong country, fucked over English so that important issues became completely obfuscated. Funny how there was nary a peep out of them when people were tortured in our name, when our global standing was at an all time low, when incompetent buddies were said to be doing a “heckuva job” as one of our most historic cities drowned. Interesting how they were more than happy to put off again and again the reckoning that we all knew was coming and how they cannot seem to connect the simplest of dots: sure, they don’t want to pay for it, but they sure want all the perks that come from living in the richest country this world has ever known. Why not–let’s continue to rob Peter to pay Paul.
The USA is one of the least taxed countries around, but you’d never know it to listen to a Tea Partier. His red neck is being crushed by the hob nail boots of people of color, gays, Gment and other “tyrannical” forces which are only vaguely described, poorly articulated and gravely misunderstood. Who was it that in the same paragraph decried the heavy burden of government, but went right on to recommend using the public library “because the books are free”? Was it their hero Glenn Beck? It couldn’t be Palin; I’m not sure she can read; her syntax is so garbled, she’s either on something or suffers from some kind of brain injury. I especially like the TPers who feel the need to strut at these rallies armed. Think about it: how insecure and frightened of everyone else do you have to be to feel the need to be armed in public at a rally with people who (supposedly) share your beliefs? It’s pathetic

Hell, they can’t even come up with a new slogan or flag. Don’t Tread on Me? The people who first used that Gadsden flag would laugh their asses off at Tea Partiers: whiny assed folks who appear to be incapable of seeing beyond their own noses. When Bush was in office, I was castigated for my liberal beliefs. I was told that to not support the President in all things was unpatriotic. It wasn’t just me–anyone not in lockstep with Bush et al was made to feel “other”. We were dismissed, patronized, mocked and scorned. Now the shoe is on the other foot (finally), yet there is a distinct lack of crowing on the part of this Gment. There is no mockery or scorn coming out of Washington to be fed straight to (I suppose) MSNBC and into our living rooms. Instead, we have pathetically scared people grasping at ridiculous theories involving birth certificates and choice of religion etc. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad. And the topper is that none of this is “racial”. As if.
I feel I can say with some heat and integrity: why do these people hate America?

[elucidator]

They don’t hate America, they hate me. Maybe you, to the extent that you resemble me. And they hate Obama for his radicalism, in which he resembles me, in much the same way that Walter Modale resembles Che Guevera.