There is a difference between taking photographs for the historic record, and satisfying the profit driven journalistic ethos of “if it bleeds, it leads.” The photos of the deceased are necessary to make sure that the world is reminded of what can happen in a disaster, or in the aftermath of one. They are unnecessary if you’re looking to sell newspapers. Frankly, it disgusts me that anyone should have to be asked not to publish photos of the dead.
Well, having stirred up the requisite shit and being told, “When Askia dies I hope [h]is naked dead body is dragged through the mud on CNN. He obviously thinks it’s good thing,” I went to bed. Nothing aggravates a pile-on more than sticking around. Nothing is so disappointing than having Dopers assume the most salacious rationales for wanting the right thing done.
I don’t think it’s a good thing, obviously. But I do think it is a necessary thing to document, question, Monday morning quarterback and underscore the tragedy of what. went. wrong.
Blessedly, cooler heads have prevailed to point out things I was a little too tired to point out succinctly last night: so my thanks to Larry Mudd, Pochacco, and meara and others for framing the argument far, far better than I did, and to others like **Cerri ** and rjung for seeing what I was seeing.
Fuck FEMA for making the request and interfering with the fourth estate at all. I see this as fundamentally no different from Abu Garib or hiding the Iraqi war dead: it’s deliberate spin on upsetting news, its a joke of newsgathering. To call boat recovery efforts after seven days a “rescue” is a fucking joke.
Fuck the press for playing along. When I see nothing but pictures of the survivors openly weeping because they’ve reunited with loved ones and glurgy-warm stories of angelic six-years bravely keeping together their families, I know there are stories out there that aren’t as fucking happy and it pisses me off they’re being glossed over. There are shell-shocked people refusing to leave New Orleans: something is keeping these folks there. What?
You don’t what to see the photos of New Orleans dead or share the attendent outrage, fine. But please don’t say doing so is somehow more reprehensible than the footdragging and spectacularly inadequate city, state and federal clusterfucks that framed this disaster before the levees broke, during the flooding and in the aftermath.
For the record, Tenar, if I had loved ones in Louisnana or Mississippi who drowned needlessly, you’re damned right I’d want their pictures published. For their deaths to heighten awareness and outrage would mean more to me then for them to just have died.
The public has a right to know.
To be perfectly honest with you? I feel like I’m being managed. Like the fucking news media and government are deliberately not showing us the dead because they don’t want black folks in America to get so upset by New Orleans that we’ll riot in the streets in solidarity. :rolleyes: America rarely gets as bent out of shape by the prospect of righteously pissed of African-Americans potentially wanting to burn shit to the ground.
They were not just asked not to publish, but not to take photos at all. Answer me this:
If it’s not the press taking pictures for the historic record, then who is it? It doesn’t sound like forensic photographers will accompany the recovery teams. I don’t think FEMA has good documentary photographers on staff like the Deps of Agriculture and Interior had during the Depression/Dustbowl years. Pity, too, those are some of the greatest documentary photos ever.
With all due respect Askia (yes, respect, in the pit :smack: ) but what public rights to know are being trampled here? Gratuitous displays of rotting corpses? I don’t need pictures to visualize the tragedy. I’m greateful not to see them. I want to hear stories of six year old taking care of their siblings and family reconcilliations. It mildly reassures me that the human spirit can shine in the worst of tragedies and in surprising ways.
I think you’re reaching for reasons to be offended here.
If you are looking to punish FEMA and the administration for their (alleged) lack of action and prevention in this natural tragedy then I suspect there will be plenty of time for gratuitous photographic evidence and finger pointing after some order is restored to the current chaos. I see little reason to stir up people’s emotion and loss into anger at this point.
I have the opposite reaction. When I see footage of bodies or video of violent whatnots, I feel like I’m being sold something. I feel like the various news shows are just using the bodies to get themselves attention. Maybe it’s the news teasers (news needs teasers? :dubious: ) that promise shocking new footage.
I think that it’s important for the pictures to be taken, but this sort of thing needs to be handled in a respectful manner. I don’t think our media outlets are capable of doing that.
As for the bolded section, I know you’re upset but let’s not too stupid.
I think the pictures should be taken. It is important that we see just what the consequences of our actions or inactions are. If it takes grotesque pictures of half-rotted infants to shock the nation into ensuring that such a tragedy not repeat itself, then let’s take the pictures. It will be a lot easier to forget about improving the system if in six months all we remember are cold statistics. If the faces of the dead haunt us into making the system work better, then we need to see them.
And while I was composing a rebuttal, I found that Pochacco had said it well. It’s especially easy to mythologize the past when you’re unfamiliar with the evidence of the past, as Mr Moto apparently is; that’s all the more reason why such evidence needs to be gathered now, so that in the future people will not be ignorant of the past.
Daniel
“…photojournalist Lucas Oleniuk was taken to the ground by police in the Spanish Quarter after he photographed a firefight between looters and police, and police were then reportedly “beating on” a looter. A coworker at the Toronto Star told News Photographer magazine tonight, ‘The cops saw him and put him down, and took his gear. At first they were going to take all of his cameras, but he talked them into only taking the memory cards and letting him keep the cameras.’”
Is there a problem now?
FEMA can ask for whatever they want, and hopefully the press will tell them to go fuck themselves. Why do conservatives develop such sensitivity for people only after they are dead? I wouldn’t be interested in seeing pictures that would necessarily reveal a person’s identity, but certainly the image of the dead body floating in the water while a woman stood on a bridge nearby was more impactful than most I saw, and conveyed clearly how far things had fallen. It seems to me that in any circumstance where a request from this administration shares space with both “sensitivity” and “public relations,” the better bet is that they are interested in the latter and could give a fuck about the former.
That’s a pretty compelling argument.
I still think there should be some sense of decorum and realization that a family may not want to discover a loved one’s death by seeing the bloated body thereof floating down Bourbon Street… but you’re right. Without pictures, people may all too easily start to deny the horror that this was.
It’s a tough balance to strike, but you’ve convinced me that the right spot for the balance is farther along the line than I initially pictured.
This “what if a relative recognizes the body” argument is mighty weak. If that’s really the concern here, they could have asked the media to simply blur faces.
I agree with those that say documenting this incident is vital for historical purposes, and also that pictures of bodies is what really brings home the depth of what happened. It was the pictures and movies of the piles of bodies that really made the holocaust hit home with me, not reading numbers in my history book.
Let’s face it - the administration couldn’t give a soggy rat’s ass about “the dignity of the dead” or “protecting survivors” - if they had cared, there wouldn’t be nearly as many dead. They do, however, care a great deal about the negative political impact this is going to have. Americans in general are very visually oriented. They don’t read newspapers anymore - they get their news from TV. Saying " there could be as many as 10,000 dead" doesn’t carry nearly the emotional impact as one photo of a mud-covered corpse. Same thing with our dead soldiers - simply stating that 15 soldiers were killed by an IED doesn’t have the emotional impact of a photo of 15 flag-draped coffins. The numbers won’t make you cry, won’t turn your stomach - and the impact won’t stay with you as long.
Many people attend funerals to get “closure” - i.e. “it didn’t sink in that he was dead until I saw him in the coffin.” The current administration doesn’t want it to “sink in” that the millions of dollars spent on DoHS was wasted. They don’t want you to realize on a gut level that they can’t do what they promised, and that in fact they are not ready or able to handle things if another 9-11 occurs.
The administration has shown their lack of caring, and their incompetence. The spin doctors don’t want you to remember.
Am I allowed to photograph the first amendment, or is that showing a lack of respect for the dignity of the dead?
I gotta tell you, I’m not surprised, and this is exactly the kind of shit I’m afraid will continue. Pretty soon when they forcibly evacuate the rest of New Orleans I wouldn’t be surprised if the severely restrict photojournalists.
Like ShibbOleth said, the bloat will do that for them. We’re to the dental records and DNA point of corpse recognition.
I take back what I said earlier in this thread. People should be able to take photographs. The federal government neither owns people’s cameras or the dead bodies.
There were unforgivable lapses in judgement commited by everyone here from the President all the way down through the federal, state and local levels and clear to some of the affected individuals themselves. But much of that was due to the fact this was a bigger event than we’d ever seen before… and outright incompetence. Frankly, the notion this occurred “because those in charge just didn’t care” I consider to be horseshit. It’s a horrible situation and some heads should roll but photographically documenting it for the same reasons you would the Holocost just strikes me as having got too caught up in the blame game. It was a Cat 5 hurricane like we’d rarely seen that hit a topographically depressed area along with a populace largely too poor to leave beforehand. No matter how well prepared we’d been you’d still have unacceptable numbers of dead bodies floating around. You’d still have a distressed, needy group whose plight tugged at our heartstrings. When all is said and done, we need to make sure those whose incompetence contributed to the magnitude of the disaster never are in such positions of responsibility again. But sacrificing the dignity of the deceased by taking pictures of their floating corpses so that some can attempt to throw disgust at those they rightly or wrongly hold responsible is something I just can’t get behind. Sorry, I just think it’s wrong to even consider this and that it’s being justified for reasons that aren’t completely within the realm of simple morality. I dont’ blame anyone for being overwhelmed by what we’re seeing. It’s beyond horrible. But it’s due to circumstances, not apathy, and no reason for the wanton disregard of the dignity of the deceased.
My two cents - don’t take them, but if they just have to, take the pictures and then for goodness sake sit on 'em until rational minds and compelling reasons are driving their release and not emotional sway.
If FEMA is asking journalists not to photograph dead bodies that’s fine. If FEMA is telling them, well…that’s another story.
More info to suggest that a restriction of liberties is at hand: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9216831/#050907c
I think one of the more shocking elements of the whole tragedy was the idea that such a lack of basic necessities could occur in the United States. I’m not sure if this crackdown on the media is an extension of that or is separate altogether. I can only say that for myself, it seems not to fit with the America that I like to believe in.