FEMA won''t let the press photograph recovery of the dead

Huurrrh?

Unless you were already be tongue in cheek and suggesting the opposite.

No, more the other way around. I have faith that most humans will behave as they should in most situations. I think that the “bad” people are in the minority and most don’t need to be led, like stupid children who can’t think on their own, into behaving right.

According to some of the reports Ive heard on the news, I’m right. Millions of dollars are pouring in from fellow Americans, and they removed the head of FEMA (pardon my old age possible memory loss) isn’t his name Michael Brown, from at least this undertaking, and possibly from his position pending investigation.

Sorry Askia, somehow I overlooked your original response to me

At any rate, yes, I understand that. And again, I agree that this should be done, whether with this, or any other momentous historical event.
But based on people’s posts here, THEY, not those invovled in the press/FEMA disagreement, seem to believe based on their words, that the reasons for the documentation is not pure documentation, but that without it, no one will care, and no one involved in the screw up will be held accoundable.

Those ideas (being expressed here), not the actual photo documenting are what I’m disagreeing with.

If I may offer my 2¢…

The question of whether or not photos of corpses should be released publicly seems to be the motivation behind their release. My take on the whole thing is that any publication, whether it’s a photo, a painting, or any other form of expression, there are as many motivations for taking these photos as there are photographers, and anybody looking at the photos, whether they were actively seeking them or not, is going to have their own personal reaction.

Are there people who want to have as much photographic documentation as possible of a historic event, so people 100 years from now can see how devastating hurricanes can be? Yes.

Are there wannabe journalists who want to take pictures because they think images reminiscent of the holocaust will make the front page news and further their own careers? Probably.

Are there people who are outraged at the response of the government and want to shock people? Yes.

Are there random amateur photographers taking pictures with disposable cameras because they just want to capture what they’re seeing because it’s interesting? Yes.

But what about the people on the recieving end, who get to see whatever pictures might be released to the public?

Are there immature teenage boys with mobid curiosities who want to see gory images because it’s “cool?” Yes.

Are there people who lost loved ones in the gulf region who would break down in tears if they saw graphic images in the newspaper? Yes.

Are there people who genuinely can’t grasp the severity of the situation with just a numerical figure and need to see gruesome images before they can understand what’s really going on? Yes.

Are there people who wouldn’t hold anybody accountable without tangible evidence of the horror that unfolded? Probably.

In short, while this may seem like a total cop-out answer, you can’t say something like “All of the photographers are just trying to stir up controversy” or vice versa because it’s a huge and complex situation, with many different people involved.

On one hand, any such photographs would necessarily be of a person who was once alive, who may not have wanted their pictures to be taken, and may have family members who don’t want the images to be seen. On the other hand, unless the photographers are breaking into peoples’ houses to take pictures, the images are essentially something that could be seen by the general public anyway because many of the bodies are in the middle of a public space. How do you censor something that anybody can just look out the window and see?

My humble opinion is that these pictures should be taken, but it’s not the responsibility of the news media to put them in the papers or on TV. Nor is it their responsibility not to. If I were working for the press, I probably wouldn’t release any photos of the dead out of basic decency, but if FEMA or anybody else is actively censoring photographers that is a Bad Thing in my opinion.

I think the best solution would be if people wanted to see the pictures could, i.e. if they were available on the internet on sites with obvious disclaimer pages, rather than popping up on TV or in newspapers where people could see them unexpectedly. Of course, that’s an ideal situation, and the problem is that once something is made public, there’s nothing to stop anyone from printing out 1,000 close-up photos of a dead person’s face and pinning them to telephone poles in the middle of a crowded city. I don’t know if there’s a way to solve that age-old problem, but censorship (other than self-censorship) is not the right answer IMHO.

Well sheesh KJ, kill the debate by being all logical and probably right on the money and stuff.

:smiley:

Haha, sorry. Next time I’m in the Pit, I’ll stick to threads where I can actually take one side over another. :slight_smile: But seriously, thanks, that’s probably the best compliment I’ve gotten on this board.

So, it would be okay if these pictures inflamed the public and encourages anger and violence against people in the government? Interesting take… I guess that would be okay, as long as the people who work for the governemnt who might be victimized aren’t Muslims, Arab-Americans and Arab immigrants. Then we’d have a conundrum, wouldn’t we?

Tell me, Askia, how would you feel if you lost a mother, father, sister or brother in the storm and then saw his or her dead, discolored, bloated body floating among trash in a newspaper or Time magazine? Or on the internet? Or in a book a year from now?

I’m not Askia but if I was in that situation I’d be righteously pissed that my mother/father/sister/brother was placed in a situation where their dead, discoloured, bloated body could be found floating amoung the trash but I don’t think that having a photo of that published would add to my pissedoffedness. In other words, having them dead and floating is what is horrible, not seeing the picture.

I never said that.

See slumtrimpet’s response.

I never said you used those exact words, but isn’t that a fair conclusion to draw from your startement that I quoted?:

Askia:

I’ll rephrase and stay closer to your actual quote: So, it would be okay if these pictures inflamed the public and encourages anger and possibly hate crimes against those who work for the city, state and federal governements whose efforts lacked a strong coordinated response? (Obviously, I changed “hate crimes” to “violence” because the acts might be white-on-white or black-on-black. And “people in the governement” seemed more efficient without changing the meaning. But I think you knew that.)

Can you respond now?

Askia, slumtrimpet, I envy your strength. But I think you skirt the issue. Granted, you would be distraught/angry over their death, particularly if you thought that someone’s incompetence played a role in it. But as a society we usually try to lessen someone’s grief, not add to it. If something like the hypothetical picture does get published and seeing it on the front page is the first notice that someone’s missing family member is dead, I’ll send them your way to benefit from your “strength”. Likewise to those who might be haunted for years with the image of his or her mother’s beaten and contorted body.

And let’s say that the picture in question shows a death that was a result of the hurricane itself, and NOT the result of a levee breaking or other human failings, what would be the upside then?

When I wrote “I never said that,” I’d highlighted the words “and violence.”

I guess I meant, what would violence toward public officials who screwed up the rescue response and ignored aspects of their own evacuation plans do accomplish?

Anger towards government officials is appropiate: it lets these public servants know we think they screwed up and that we’re displeased. Write angry letters, start recall elections, shout at them on the street. I do not, in this instance, advocate violence.

Hate crimes would not be appropriate because it assumes the Arab Muslim you beat up had something to do with 9/11.

With regard to my feelings toward displaying dead bodies, I’ve been wanting to say this for days now: I have recently been re-watching the PBS documentary series, EYES ON THE PRIZE and when I posted by objection to shielding the public from the sight of the bodies, I just happened to watch the segment featuring the abduction and murder of 14 year old Emmit Till, a Chicagoan visting the segregated south who was shot, the corpse drowned beyond recognition for being fresh to a white woman in Mississippi by the woman’s husband and brother.

Here’s a picture of Emmitt Till and his mom.

Here’s a picture of his corpse. (WARNING. Disturbing)

Lawless men came to this boy’s family home at gunpoint after midnight and abducted him and did that do him. When his funeral was held in Chicago THOUSANDS of mourners in the community came to see with their own eyes the scope of this tragedy. Strong women fainted, stoic men were reduced to tears.

At the time, the picture was so horrific that it was only (pretty sure it was only) published in the Negro press at the time (JET magazine, I believe) and yes, the sight was so horrific many blacks of that generation have never forgotten it to this day. It also galvanized the nascent Civil Rights Movement as the yearlong bus boycott in Montgomery, Alabama happened shortly after that.

At the time, Mayor Ray Nagin had been predicting a body count of 10,000 dead, something so untenably wrong I felt it needed exposing. I thought the streets were being choked with dead bodies and that FEMA and the news media was essentially covering up the scope of the deaths because I hadn’t really seen anything on the news.

Since then, I have come to distrust Nagin’s rather hysterical predictions and have been persuaded that the devastation, while acute, did not have the body count Nagin’s been saying all along. To me, now, there is somewhat less urgency to the meme that more lives could have been saved. But the fact we’re still questioning it means the documentation must continue, even at the cost of temporarily making society feel “less grief” which I think is just bakwards anyway. Personally I think that’s wrong with America today. We’re too fucking sanitized, comforted and removed from real death, war, starvation, disease, pestilence, personal crimes and in many cases, true empathy. We do not make conditions better to prevent these things for the masses, but make it so the privileged are removed enough not to face them.

P.S. I never said the images needed to be published on the front page, either.

We could argue hypotheticals until the cows come home. Have any pictures of bloated (and recognizable) loved ones been published on the front pages? I am arguing for documentation via photography not for sensationalism and exploitation. For what it’s worth, the thought of my mother/father/sister/brother/daughter/son/Aunt/Uncle/niece/nephew/neighbor/friend drowning in an attic or floating in the sewage or dead in a wheelchair on an overpass would haunt me for life. I wouldn’t need a photo. It would be redundant.

Full retreat from “zero access”:

Nicely out General! :stuck_out_tongue:

Put dammit, Nicely Put General.

Askia, Here’s the problem I’m having wtih what you’re saying. On the one hand you are in favor of surpressing photos of 911 victims because they might have so enraged people that they may have been tempted to act out against those they perceived to be responsible in a violent way (hate crimes). Yet, as far as the Katrina victims, you think those pictures should be seen, even if they so enrage people that they might be tempted to act out against those who they perceive to be responsible in a violent way.
I could understand either position regarding the supression of photos of corpses, but you do not seem to have a principled stance. Or, at least, I don’t see one to be classified as such.
Also, do you think that every death should be used to marshall anger toward the elected officials? If one of the first winds blew a two-by-four through a man’s chest or knocked him out and pinned him under a car as the waters came—before the levee broke—should photos of his corpse be used to inflame the public over Katrina and direct people’s anger “toward the city, state and federal efforts and their lack of a strong, coordinated response”? If not, how do you know which bodies are of righteous use and which would be implicating fault unfairly?

Yes.

Let’s never forget that the government works for the people, not the other way around. When our government screws up, we’re supposed to be inflamed and demand the (ir)responsible parties be replaced with competent people ASAP.

And to stretch the 9/11-Katrina comparison a tad further, I don’t think anyone seriously believes that if the public is “inflamed” against the goverment agencies involved will misdirect their outrage at an innocent party, such as the Department of Motor Vehicles.

Did you skip over part of that sentence? Or did you intend to have your reply take into accoount the idea of viloence?:

“So, it would be okay if these pictures inflamed the public and encourages anger and violence against people in the government?”

My bet is that Mayor Nagin is hoping that people’s anger toward those responsible isn’t inflamed in the coming days and weeks.

You’re right. And if we could be certain that the photos wouldn’t be used in yellow-journalism fashion, I would feel more comfortable with the proposition.

I agree again. And I certainly wouldn’t need it either. But the question is, would you prefer to see them in newspapers or magazines or not? I’d vote for no.

Askia, as far as the picture of Emmitt Till, whatever was done to his young body by water and other forces of nature does nothing to increase my disgust for what was done to him by the hate and ignorance of man. I did not look at it. I do not need to. Nothing is to be gained. If his body was found perfectly pristine I do not think it mitigates the heinousness of the act one iota.

Absolutely. But the fact that his body was mutilated nearly beyond recognition does exacerbate the heinousness.

Let’s just say I’d rather have a populace that’s so pissed off at the incompetence of the government that they’re willing to grab the torches and Frankenstein rakes and seriously demand our leaders get their sh*t together over a bunch of apathetic ninnies who couldn’t be bothered to vote because they needed the ten minutes to watch American Idol instead.

I thinik it depends on who does the mutilating. If it is done by the criminals, I agree. If done ny the ravages of time and nature, not so much.

I think you skipped over one of my posts. Could you please respond to # 134. Thanks.