Man oh man, I just don’t know what to say. This shit has me more internally divided than I could have imagined. I’m not even sure who I’m pitting. There is no question that some members of the community acted like asses last night, but having been a frequent visitor of this area, I don’t believe their actions were justified, but I do think they are understandable. I’ll be back there tomorrow, and it seems to me that the police kind of exacerbated the situation tonight. Tear gas? Rubber bullets? prevention of assembly? As far as I know, tonight was an example of the wrong-headedness(is that a word?) of the police force of the town in general. Some statements of the Chief of Police has kind of shown an “us vs. them” attitude. I can understand circling your wagons at a time like this, but that attitude, which seems pervasive in the law enforcement community is exactly the opposite of what needs to occur for everyone to get past the culture clash that is destroying one part of the community’s trust. I work around “these people” on a daily basis, trying to provide safe and comfortable housing for “them”. What happens when a comparatively small contingent of the community acts like this is that the underlying abuse of power by the police force gets overlooked. This kid, from every thing that I’ve heard so far, had a promising future. Now there is a large group of assholes taking advantage of the fact that this kid lost his life. Consequently, The fact that he may have been wrongfully removed from this plane of existence is lost in that story. Now the nation is seeing footage of the riots and focusing on those instead of trying to figure what actually happened between Ferguson Police and this suspect. I am not trying to martyr him or absolve him of guilt.I have no idea of what might have happened . I do know that most shootings of civilians involving a police officer in the general St.Louis area have either the excuse that he “was driving at me”(at least one time in reverse. The officers involved in that incident unloaded their pistols, to the tune of about 24 rounds. you’d think they could have moved out of the way of the reversing vehicle in the time it took to fire 20+ shots.) or “he went for my gun”. Unfortunately, it reminds me of the Dave Chappelle sketch Where the cops accidentally shoot somebody and then say"just sprinkle some crack on him. it’ll be alright". Damn the police for shooting an unarmed man and damn everybody who deciding getting free shit was more important than justice. As always, I apologize for the block of text.
Oh yeah, Shit,damn, piss, fuck.
Quoi?
Even assuming that the police were 110% in the wrong, I never can understand how the gross injustice of a sad even like this one can be made right by looting and damage of property. I just don’t get it.
I always wonder about the statement “I don’t believe their actions were justified, but I do think they are understandable”. To me, “understandable” means “justified” if you’re talking about someone like yourself. As in “I could possibly do the same (that is, justify it to myself) in the same circumstance”.
The only way “understandable” is not the same as “justified” is if you’re talking about someone lesser, morally and ethically, than you. As in “Obviously I wouldn’t do that, but that kind of person, whatchagonnado?”.
As a wise man once said:
Just my opinion but I feel like the citizens are making a statement like:
“Normally we respect the law. When the law doesn’t respect us, this is what you can expect on a daily basis.”
It’s more a statement of Fuck Tha Police than it is a quest for justice.
It’s not a statement. It’s a few jerks taking advantage of a shitty situation to justify being jerks.
Sure, there’s always going to be a few of those in any crowd. But I feel like it’s also a way for the people to say that they have power too. The police can kill a citizen for no appreciable reason. The citizens can wreck everything for the same non-reason. It’s a gauntlet thrown down. Are you going to shoot the rest of us for doing something worse than whatever this particular victim did? Do you have enough bullets to kill us all? Are you willing to gun down your fellow citizens just because?
I don’t think it’s all just people who want to steal taking the opportunity. I’d like to think human nature isn’t so opportunistic. Some, certainly. But most I’d prefer to think are trying to let the police know that this system only works if both sides can trust each other.
Once again, let’s all blame the victims.
Leave it to the right-wing racist assholes to make the story about the looters, not about the innocent unarmed teenager shot dead by police.
Check Google news right now and find, not one, but at least three recent stories of U.S. police using excessive force, often including death, to subdue people accused of jaywalking or such. In every case the victim is black; the cop white.
Is outrage by the black community justified? I think so. Is it “human nature” that a few opportunists will take advantage of chaos to commit theft? Were the situation reversed, you can bet that white-skinned red-necked racist assholes would be looting and stealing with both hands.
Human nature. It’s not made right, but this is (often) how humans respond to injustice. This is nothing new, and nothing unique to any particular groups.
This is how it might work, even with a ‘decent’ cop: he sees a guy on the street, possibly somewhere he may not be supposed to be, like jaywalking, or whatever. If the guy is black, the cop is 5% (or 25%, or 75%, depending on the cop, and it’s probably completely unconcsious) more likely to be on edge. If the guy is young and black, the cop is X% more likely to put his hand on his gun. If the guy is young and black and tattooed and wearing a hoodie, the cop is X% more likely to draw the gun. If the young black tattooed guy wearing a hoodie yells back at the cop, or doesn’t react immediately, when the cop gives him an order, the cop is X% more likely to point the gun at the guy. If the young black tattooed guy wearing a hoodie and yelling at the cop makes a sudden move or puts his hand close to his pocket, the cop is X% more likely to pull the trigger.
So it all might just be a series of tiny, unconscious decisions that the cop is making. He doesn’t even know it, probably. But he was more likely to shoot this guy because he was black.
You’re absolutely correct. The press and people’s opinions should focus solely on what YOU think is relevant.
I find myself doubting the officer’s explanation of events. Even if they are true, he still unloaded a magazine into an unarmed man.
I was surprised to learn that the Ferguson PD cars aren’t equipped with dash cameras.
I’ve always thought the difference lies in the emotion. It is understandable that someone would do something out of anger that is completely unjustified.
The trouble being that looting and rioting only has two possible effects
[ol][li]If the kid was innocent, the message sent is “the police fucked me and my neighbors over. So I am going to fuck my neighbors over.”[/li][li]It makes it look less likely that the kid was innocent, since looters and rioters feel kinship for him and identify with him. It’s not fair, but it is human nature to think "if the kid was anything like the looters, he got what he deserved. "[/ol][/li]Regards,
Shodan
It’s not about what’s relevant. It’s about which is the greater miscarriage of justice. If you ignore the death, it comes across like you think it was not a problem.
Not that I think the comment about magellan is right. He’s focusing on the part he doesn’t understand. Hopefully this thread has enlightened him. It has me. Rioting as a way of protesting the police makes sense to me.
Not that I’m sure it makes sense here. It would make more sense after they were sure it was not going to be dealt with. But those are mobs for you.
I think your understanding is off. “Justified” means a lot more than “I could possibly do the same in the same circumstance.” It means that I think what happened is morally correct.
I acknowledge that I could make a morally incorrect choice in many circumstances. I would hope I’d be stronger than the mob mentality, but maybe I wouldn’t be. I know I’ve given into temptation before.
I know I have wanted to do those same things in similar situations, but have held back. I’d hope I’d be able to do it here, too. But I also know that people are horrible at estimating their ability to ignore temptation to give in and do something they know is wrong.
It’s actually the main reason I try my best to not be judgmental. There but for the grace of God go I.
Well, it could be if it were the property of the police, but they tend to be secretive about where they live . . .
Outrage is justified, but rioting, looting and other lawless behavior isn’t. This kind of behavior by the black community doesn’t do them any favors in the eyes of the rest of the country either. It perpetuates stereotypes of violence and criminality, and hardens a lot of hearts against them, which is the last thing you want to happen if you’re trying to get a fair shake by the other 84% of the country.
And worse yet, people will see these jerks rioting and looting, and think “Hmm… if these are the people the Ferguson cops have to put up with on a daily basis, it’s not surprising that one might get shot by a cop.” Not that it’s right, but it’s what people will think.
And what do they expect anyway? A public lynching of the cop? The guy’s under investigation, and will almost certainly stand trial. That’s the way the system works.
Clearly there is something wrong in the country if young, unarmed black men keep getting shot by cops and other security types like George Zimmermann. But responsibility for this lies on BOTH sides; obviously there has to be something that young black men do that has cops frightened, angry or aggressive in a way that they’re not toward young white men or young hispanic men. Saying that it’s plain racism isn’t really productive either- there’s more to it than that, I suspect.