I don’t think that’s the argument anymore. I think it’s devolved into, “Well, Brown might have assaulted the officer, but Wilson didn’t have to shoot him!”, which is nothing more than trying to rationalize away thuggish behavior.
I’ll take the fact that Wilson shows visible signs of bruising (it doesn’t matter if you think it’s not “severe” enough), the fact that Brown’s DNA was found inside of the squad car and eye witness testimony over people who couldn’t even keep their stories straight.
You repeat this statistic as if it’s the gospel truth when IMO it’s bogus. We discussed it in the GD thread and there is plenty of reason to doubt the conclusion.
If Brown was 21 feet away and he took one iota of a motion towards Wilson after Brown had already assulted Wilson then I would say Wilson was justified in firing. People can cover ground very quickly. 21 feet is nothing.
I’d rather let that side make clear what arguments they’re making, thanks. Plus, if someone doesn’t trust the police, I doubt they’d trust the evidence presented by them to the public. I mean, that only makes sense, right?
(Responding to two posts up, of course.)
I can’t seem to link to the Post Dispatch story with my iPad, but there were two white construction workers who witnessed the shooting… And who talked to Brown earlier that same day.
Clearly the training levels of the department on dealing with racial issues might be a factor. I wouldn’t necessarily expect an officer from a large department with strongly mixed populations in their area to react the same as a small town officer with less rigorous follow on training and there’s almost no diversity. A department and training influenced racial bias is different than tarring all officers nationwide with the same brush though. I hope the researchers get far more research funding and can eventually get to the point where they identify training methods that produce the best results.
A difference of .24 seconds (not point .4) is small but does involve some acceptance of risk if lethal force is justified. It doesn’t seem like it helps good decision making though. Officers shoot unarmed whites in error at a higher rate (after taking less time) but they fail to shoot armed black suspects at a higher rate too when the right decision is to shoot. Across the board the decisions seem biased towards shooting blacks at lower rates. While clearly still an early result that requires much more testing it flies in the face of the common narrative.
That common narrative simply presents the end result as evidence that the result must necessarily flow from internal racial bias with rare acknowledgement of even the other correlated factors. The same reasoning could be used could be used to justify an argument that all police are subconsciously sexist and ageist in using deadly force because there’s a disparity against young males (regardless of race). Bad reasoning is bad reasoning. I want more but don’t see much from either side of what has become a typically polarized debate.
When this whole thing went down three months ago, I was leaning towards Brown’s side but keeping an open mind. I eventually changed my mind after hearing further details about the case. After seeing that Wilson interview, that pretty much sealed the deal for me.
This isn’t a decision I came to lightly.
As to your second question, sure, and I can’t really blame them either. People are sick of seeing young black men die at the hands of cops. So am I. I can easily see how emotion would trump objectivity in this case. Thus, the hand waving away of Brown’s thuggish behavior and placing all the blame on the white police officer.
Look, there is a BIG problem with racial bias in law enforcement agencies across the nation. And it’s not just a little problem either, it’s fucking rampant, and it needs to be addressed. But that doesn’t mean white officers should NEVER shoot a black man under any circumstance whatsoever.
Can you be more specific? What “thuggish behavior” are we talking about here? What other witness to this behavior do we have, outside of the officer?
You’re on pretty safe ground there.
Surprised it took someone this long to bring up the Tueller drill even if indirectly. Although technically a matter of knife vs holstered gun that distance likely would have been seen by Wilson as representing significantly increased danger. The drill also is just a matter of shooting before the suspect closes the distance. Shooting first doesn’t mean you aren’t in still in significant danger even if that shot inflicts a mortal wound.
I haven’t had a chance to see a good accounting of the distance during the final engagement. I’ve found some conflicting claims. That evidence would be enlightening.
Does said drill have a mathematical constant to factor in ballistic interference? A “justgotshot” quotient?
Okay, here’s what really bugs me about this entire situation (not necessarily directed at any individuals here):
Here we have a group of people who, since their arrival in this country, has never had any faith or trust in the police or criminal justice system for strong historical reasons that (and this is important) last to this very day.
So we have a case that fits very well into the historical pattern (that again, lasts to this very day, with incidents that happened CONTEMPORANEOUSLY to the one in question in other states): mostly minority town, mostly white police force, a history that can be reasonably interpreted as racially charged, the demographics of the victim, the acts and speech of both cops and prosecutors alike.
Yet some people want to wag their fingers and tut and say to this very same group, “Now, now, children, THIS TIME you should trust the police and the evidence they’ve gathered and presented.” And then they act all shocked, horrified, and morally superior when that group doesn’t, despite having absolutely no reason to do so, especially with the ONGOING NATIONAL PATTERN still going on.
It speaks to a certain level of arrogance and ignorance that frankly astounds me.
Well, there’s the photos of Wilson’s pummeled face. There’s also a fucking video of Brown strongarming a store owner, there’s forensic evidence that show Brown’s DNA in the squad car. What more evidence do you need?
“Pummeled face”? Seriously? I’ve had worse razor burns. That’s not even a freaking scratch.
We looking at the same pics? I’ve been more pummeled playing touch football at a picnic. With girls.
highfives jayjay
Oh, and it’s interesting that suddenly nobody’s talking about that “suborbital blowout fracture” that had right-wing blogs and media ablaze a month ago…
In all fairness, the forensic evidence sided with Officer Wilson’s account of the shooting. That statement pretty much defines a thug.
The behavior to the store guy might be relevant if Wilson were aware of it. Nonetheless, shoving is one thing, shooting quite another. Most likely, the victim of a thuggish shoving will survive. And he shoved once, Officer Wilson shot him six times. Tried for a perfect ten, apparently, but fell short.
If we measure thugishness by a standard of callous disregard for others…well, you most likely know where this is going, most of us had Moms who told us this stuff.
Okay, forgive the hyperbole. The severity is irrelevant, it still serves as evidence of Brown’s thuggish behavior.
Assault is a crime. Period.
It’s intellectually dishonest to compare assaulting a cop to whatever discipline your mom decided to dish out.
You heard it here, boys and girls. When a huge violent black man attacks you, take a severe bloody beating or we’ll call you racist for defending yourself.