Ferguson, MO

Certainly the first question is key. I don’t understand why the second is so routinely raised as a linked issue, though–as if officers killed somehow mitigate or ‘count against’ police violence against citizens.

Everybody understands that there are some occasions, we should hope very few, where a killing by police is warranted. Every unwarranted killing represents a failure by police. That some police are killed elsewhere really has nothing to do with it. Some of those situations might represent additional failures, others the inevitable risks of the job, but no level of injury sustained by police justifies or excuses their failures of restraint or competence at other times and places.

According to Officer Down Memorial Page (it seems to be mostly believable), 104 officers have died in the line of duty this year. 43 were the result of gunfire, 42 traffic accident, and others. One of the most recent was an Deputy Christopher Smith who was shot and killed after responding to a house fire. Story here. I don’t recall a pit thread about that.

Deaths in the line of duty, especially homocides, are raised to explain the methods and rationale for how police officers are trained and their mindset in dealing with calls. I’m a bit surprised that you wouldn’t understand that the possibility of being murdered for being a police officer might be relevant to the reasons police take the actions they do. Many police officers I know were very concerned about being hurt or killed in the line of duty, and were much more cautious, less trusting of the public, and more reactionary because of it.

I fully admit that policing has become way to militaristic and much too quick to respond with violence. But ignoring that part of the reason for that is deaths in the line of duty, seems a bit of wilfull blindness.

Because suggestions on how to reduce the number of police killings often raise the risk to police.

For instance, the idea that Darren Wilson should not have shot Michael Brown. Physical evidence shows that Brown was advancing on Wilson when he was killed. Brown could, instead, have used his nightstick or Mace. Both are relatively less effective in subduing a suspect than shooting. Especially when the suspect outweighs you by eighty pounds.

It’s important when you are balancing off relative risk, to know the risk on both sides. Plus it offends against a sense that many people have to say to a cop, “If some creep attacks you, we are going to only worry about it if you kill him - if he kills you, that’s much less a cause for concern.” IYSWIM.

Regards,
Shodan

I believe the numbers of officers killed in the line of duty are more important than the random red herrings used to justify the unwarranted burning and looting.

Police and criminals operate in a violent and dangerous environment. Will the suspect of a strongarm store robbery attempt to kill or grievously injure an officer for investigating the strongarm robbery? Will the suspect of illegal cigarette sales refuse to be arrested for the 32nd time and fight with officers attempting an arrest? Will the driver of a vehicle stopped for speeding, leave his vehicle and attempt to take the officers firearm or use their own candlestick, pipe wrench, or gun to kill the officer in order to avoid getting a ticket?

Police officers are being injured and killed in the line of duty and their training has to consider that possibility when officers are being trained to protect the public.

Doorhinge, the NYC protestors are not protesting that the NYPD didn’t simply let Mr. Garner walk away. They’re protesting that he was killed unnecessarily, when the cops (as had evidently been done a couple of dozen times before) didn’t just effect his “arrest” by citation. As is fairly typical, a member of LE was apparently irked that he argued with them (as was his right).

Anyone who has a simplistic mind and fixates merely on “this number is higher than that number” has a dilemma when taking into account that African Americans make up roughly 14% of the population. If one accepts that caucasians (a group consisting of virtually everyone else but those of hispanic descent) make up 63% of the U.S. population, then 123 black folks being shot and killed by law enforcement as compared to 326 caucasians is a rather startling difference. (Should one care to break it down into simple terms by population as compared to racial background, one would expect if all things were equal to see something in the neighborhood of 46 black deaths.)

The number of police officers who die in the line of duty as a result of the intentional act of another (vs. in a way that anyone might die, including traffic accident) is small. That’s a useful discussion if one is talking about how realistic it is for a cop to claim to be in fear for his life given the almost million folks in law enforcement of one type or another. Being a cop very rarely even cracks the top ten most dangerous professions (2001 was naturally one such year). In other words, it’s a persistent myth within and without the profession that it’s an oh-so terribly dangerous job in which they “put life on the line every day” as compared to others.

I won’t even speak to your last paragraph; that seems a waste of time.

[quote=“doorhinge, post:3664, topic:695354”]

I believe the numbers of officers killed in the line of duty are more important than the random red herrings used to justify the unwarranted burning and looting.QUOTE]

People dying is a “red herring ”? That’s … disturbing.

“Police and criminals operate in a violent and dangerous environment.”

If you’re talking career criminals, I’d say very few do. In light of some police being of a mind to consider criminals “garbage”, it’s ironic that one is statistically far more likely to die on the job than a police officer if one is literally a garbage collector.

“Will the suspect of a strongarm store robbery attempt to kill or grievously injure an officer for investigating the strongarm robbery?”

Sorry, but … wha? Seems incomplete. (This would make more sense if the initial premise of your post was “I believe [focusing on avoiding the numbers of officers [that might be] killed in the line of duty [is] more important than the random red herrings used to justify the unwarranted burning and looting.”)

“Will the suspect of illegal cigarette sales refuse to be arrested for the 32nd time and fight with officers attempting an arrest?”

As mentioned elsewhere, I don’t know of any policy or regulation within the NYC that calls for arrest in the Garner situation by any means other than arrest by issuing a citation. Someone’s free to clarify that.

“Will the driver of a vehicle stopped for speeding, leave his vehicle and attempt to take the officers firearm or use their own candlestick, pipe wrench, or gun to kill the officer in order to avoid getting a ticket?”

This is absolutely one of the weirder hypotheticals (once one makes the revision to your post’s initial premise) that I’ve seen. To be sure, there are really stupid humans in the world whose intelligence is at such a low level that they basically operate on animalistic impulse. It’s possible that someone would be that stupid, but one presumes that the officer will do as (s)he’s free to and trained to do and kill the person before they “use their own candlestick, pipe wrench or gun to kill the officer in order to avoid getting a ticket .”

“Police officers are being injured and killed in the line of duty and their training has to consider that possibility when officers are being trained to protect the public.”

To this, someone might say “Where is the disagreement?” (However, note that police officers are statistically far less likely to be injured or die in the course of their work than a wide swath of other professions, including construction workers. I dare say that, just as it the case with police, (for instance) construction workers that die on the job by and large aren’t dying due to an adversarial confrontation with someone.)

I think everyone pretty much understands that.

And thus, the public is less trusting of the police, and some few more apt to respond to the police with violence.

The difference is, the public is supposed to be able to trust the police. The police have a sworn duty to the public, not the other way round. When police show disregard for this duty, it should surprise no one that their job gets harder and more dangerous, and their standing in society falls.

Having a sworn duty to the public doesn’t mean they are expected to value their own lives less than those of the criminals they’re tasked with bringing to justice.

But if your first sentence is true, then we should be able to trace this growing militarization and violence to an actual increase in deaths on duty.

But as far as i can tell from the figures i’ve been able to find, there has been no dramatic, or even steady, long-term increase in the danger of policing. Figures on this page suggest that officer fatalities have remained remarkably steady, within a broad general range, over the past decades.

Since the end of WWII (which seemed like a reasonable place to start), the number of law enforcement fatalities in the United States has been between about 100 and 300 every year, with an average of 167 fatalities per year. These figures include fatalities such as car crashes. Unfortunately, they don’t break down the number of fatalities related to violence directed explicitly against police.

Figures on this page show that deaths over the past decade demonstrate the same general pattern, and also show that assaults, and assaults with injury, against officers have fallen slightly.

It’s also quite well understood by criminologists that violent crime as a whole has fallen considerably in the United States over the past few decades, especially in large cities. New York City had 2,262 murders, 3,216 rapes, and 44,122 felonious assaults in 1990. The numbers for 2013 were 335 murders, 1,378 rapes, and 20,297 felonious assaults.

If officers have recently become, as you suggest, too militaristic and too quick to respond with violence, there does not seem to have been any significant change in the circumstances of their jobs that would justify this changing behavior. Yes, any officer death in the line of duty is one too many (and i say that as the stepson of a retired cop), and officers should be able to protect themselves from harm, but i believe that there are ways to do that without leaving so many unarmed people dead as a result of police encounters.

And it’s also not simply a matter of taking them down violently, on the one hand, or “ask[ing] suspects to put handcuffs on themselves,” on the other, as suggested so asininely by doorhinge. There are times when force is both necessary and justified. I don’t claim to have read every piece of testimony or forensic evidence, but from my own understanding of the case, i believe that police use of force was necessary and justified in the Michael Brown case. I’m still not completely convinced it was necessary to shoot him so many times, but i recognize that the officer, alone and under assault, had the right to protect and defend himself.

The Garner case in New York is much more troubling, and i think it reflects a basic problem in the way that police approach these situations. There was basically nothing to be lost by taking a little more time with this situation, rather than diving in with a banned chokehold. Yes, the guy was big, but there was a group of fully-armed officers around him, he wasn’t actually attacking anyone, and a less-belligerent attitude to policing could have helped the situation immensely. I think that people should obey the cops, but people might also be more likely to do that if police didn’t approach even the most routine interaction as World War Three.

I think a fundamental problem of policing is not so much that police end up using their guns too often (although that is a problem), but that the basic approach that so many cops adopt in dealing with the public is one of hostility and intimidation. I also believe that this approach tends to be used more often in poor communities, and communities with large minority populations. Law-and-order advocates say that if you’ve done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear from cops, but i believe that the way police often act in this country means that this is not a true statement.

As i said, my stepfather’s a retired cop. My mother spent the last decade of her work life as a civilian employee in the police department. Her wedding to my stepfather was attended by half the cops from his large station. I’m a white, educated professional, and the worst lawbreaking i engage in is going 75 mph on the freeway. I like a crime-free, peaceful society. I’m someone who should instinctively trust and support the police. Yet, despite all of this, i would do everything possible to avoid any engagement with the police. Not because they’re all bad—they’re not—but because too many of them are assholes and despots and bullies who are attracted to the force precisely because it allows them to push people around.

The training they receive encourages them to think of the public as the enemy, and to use force earlier rather than later, and the legal system protects them from all but the very worst, most obvious violations of their duties and their obligations. Unfortunately, poor communities of color are the ones who bear the brunt of this system. I tend to agree with an article i saw the other day about the Eric Garner case: if this had been some big white guy in Utah, killed under identical circumstances by the ATF or the FBI, the case would be a massive conservative rallying point over the tyranny of government authority and force.

[quote=“Fallen, post:3666, topic:695354”]

(post shortened)

It’s disturbing if you chose to get your exercise by jumping to the conclusion that the statement - than the random red herrings used to justify the unwarranted burning and looting - could only applied to people dying.

Let me rephase my question. When a police officer stops a suspect he reasonably believes was involved in a recently reported strongarm robbery, should that officer be aware of the fact that the suspect in question may resort to violence to prevent the officer from investigating the robbery or taking the suspect into custody?

(post shortened)

Police in Ferguson resorted to wearing riot gear BECAUSE police in Ferguson were being threatened with violence on a daily (hourly?) basis by the lynch mob mentality of protestors. IN SPITE OF THE FACT that the lynch mobs were throwing rocks, bottles, and Molotov cocktails at the police officers, officer training, and proper equipment, prevented officers from being killed or injured.

[quote=“doorhinge, post:3670, topic:695354”]

Er, “disturbing”? Do you actually believe that’s an appropriate word to use, given the connotation? At any rate, I recall your post traveling from the red herring platform into referencing reports about black v. white folks shot and killed by police and then reference to police deaths. As such, please explain (if you feel like it) how I 'jump[ed] to conclusions" in my response.

My recollection (since you appear to be referring to the Brown-Wilson case) is that Wilson (definitively in his post-non-indictment interview) said he was on his way to get lunch. The boys weren’t stopped because he suspected them to be the ones who took a box of cigarillos from a convenience store.

I don’t see how you lept to your revised question from the question at the end of your prior thread in this subdiscussion, and it makes little sense. Whyever would someone say (rephrased) “an officer shouldn’t or should never be aware of the fact that a suspect may resort to violence”? Whether or not you are a police officer, someone may resort to violence in *any *interpersonal interaction (whether that person would in fact be or be considered insane/irrational to do so is another matter).

If you can find me a place where i denied any of this, you should point it out to me.

As would have been quite clear to anyone with more than about three functioning neurons, i was making general observations about the militarization and the violence of the police in the United States. Had you asked me what i felt about the specific instance you’re referring to, i might have had a response, but if you’re going to dishonestly pretend that i was arguing about that specific instance, or indeed taking any position at all on the riot gear worn in Ferguson, then you clearly have no interest in rational discussion on the issue.

Sayeth Peremensoe: “I don’t understand why the second is so routinely raised as a linked issue,”

And thus the police are less trusting of people and are more apt to respond to the people with violence…

And the cycle continues.

Of course it’s all the police’s fault. How could I have expected anything else.

Ummmm, no. I don’t think that follows at all.

You cannot fathom any other possible reason for an increased militarization of police outside of more death by police officers?

None?

You?

Here’s a biggie: The War on Drugs. Add in the violence in the US being reflected in the pool of police officers, the gun culture, the movement from military to the police of many officers, and many other reasons, and it’s not just deaths in the line of duty.

As do I.

We agree again.

And again.

And again. If we keep this up, we might have to move in together. Maybe an “Odd Couple”-ish sitcom.

I think you’ve identified a big problem. Police now seem to rely much to much on intimidation, threats, violence, and shows of force to do their job. It seems to me it’s changed even since I was a baby prosecutor.

But I think there are additional problems and causes to that problem, that need to be addressed. Everything from the demise of walking the beat in favor of cars to the burnout of having to deal with the dregs of society everyday (which I completely grasp) to disrespect from the community have contributed to the way police officers act now. Putting it all down to simply police misconduct ignores too much of the problem. It’s a circular problem, where the police aren’t patient and are too aggressive to a community, and the community responds with disobedience and violence, which makes the police less patient and more aggressive, which makes the community respond. Repeat for a century in urban environments, and here we are.

It also helps to remember there are like 750,000 police officers in the US. Even with the recent rash of problems, I still think the vast majority are good people. They do need to tone down the intimidation and violence, especially in training, they do need to do more community outreach (although its very, very difficult to do when the community hates you already and anyone who tries to help you is ostracized), but, in the same sense, people need to change too.

Right, i agree, but i was talking about what i would consider to be valid reasons. I was referring specifically to things that would constitute actual good reasons for increasing police militarization and violence, not spurious reasons. If there had been, in fact, growing danger to police over the past couple of decades, with an increasing tendency among the public to assault or kill police, the changes in police tactics might be justified.

The War on Drugs is part of the problem, not an excuse. In fact, the War on Drugs ends up promoting bad policing, because of its heavy focus on low-end, non-violent users in poor communities of color. Almost every study shows that middle-class whites use drugs in about the same numbers as poor people of color, and yet it’s the latter who end up with criminal records because that’s who cops focus on. I know plenty of people who use drugs on a regular basis, and not one has ever been hassled by the cops because they are, for the most part, people like me. Add in civil asset forfeiture, whereby police departments become the direct financial beneficiaries of their own aggressive tactics, and you have a recipe for disaster.

The gun culture is not an excuse. The increasing number of former soldiers might be an explanation for growing militarization and violence on the part of the force itself, but it’s not a valid reason. Police forces should make clear to soldiers that this isn’t war, and if they can’t deal with that, they should be told to find a different job.

I agree.

The problem, though, is that even the so-called good cops are often unwilling or (being charitable) unable to do anything about the rogues in their midst. Until the good cops are willing to speak out against racists and bullies and criminals on the force, they shouldn’t complain too much when they all get lumped in together. If you’re going to enable the rights violaters, you don’t then get to stand back, throw your hands up and say, “Hey, it wasn’t me.”

Also, even the good people are being trained to act like violent assholes in many departments, and are being pressured to act like violent assholes on the streets by the (alleged) minority among them.

But it has to start somewhere. It seems to me that, given the active police role in initiating many contacts within the communities where they work, maybe the first burden should be on police. And if, as you concede, the training itself is an integral part of the problem surely the burden for fixing that does not fall on the communities being policed, but on the departments themselves? After all, the cops themselves tell us that they’re disciplined and professional, so if we institute new and better training and rules of engagement, they should be able to follow them, right? It seems to me that police discipline and professionalism are trotted out by the cops and their defenders when convenient to a particular argument, but conveniently set aside when change is called for.

I would add (and Hamlet, as a former prosecutor might be able to shed some light on this) that, in cases where police are suspected of violating the rules they are supposed to follow, or of violating the law, society would benefit from a system where the people charged with prosecuting them are not the same ones who work directly with police in prosecuting criminals on an everyday basis.

This is not simply a matter of justice being done, but of it being seen to be done. If mistrust between police and communities is an issue, surely it’s obvious that having alleged police misconduct investigated and prosecuted by the same people who serve as agents of the police might be seen by many as a fundamental flaw in the justice system. If a prosecutor has aligned himself with the police in the prosecution of your son or your cousin or your husband or wife, it’s a bit hard to convince yourself that the same prosecutor is on your side when the police themselves are accused of misconduct.

I’m not arguing that the results in the particular cases we’re talking about here were always the wrong results. It seems to me that, in Ferguson, the witness and forensic evidence might not have been sufficient to sustain a prosecution no matter who was prosecuting. But there was also some rather unseemly public reluctance and some rather odd choices on the part of the prosecutor in this case, which just serve to add to the public perception that just about any police action will be deemed acceptable by the system.

This, of course, ties into the legal system itself, which over the years has been willing to give police more and more—some would say excessive—leeway in their conduct, and to place fewer and fewer restrictions on their conduct, and to do this even in cases where it seems clear that they have gone beyond the bounds of reasonable and lawful behavior. There have been, over the years, police actions that have been correctly found to be lawful, but where those correct decisions have been based on laws and court decisions that are, in my opinion, far too dismissive of citizens’ civil liberties and far too willing to grant police license to do pretty much whatever they want.

That was a different thing than the thing everybody understands. Take another look.

I thought we were discussing how we have come to where we are, rather than trying to find reasons to blame the police.

Does this logic work against non-police officers too? Should we blame protesters for not doing enough to stop rioters? Or the good people who are in horrible situations in urban environments? Should we agree that they are part of the problem too because they don’t do enough to speak out against gang violence, they don’t co-operate with the police, and they don’t stop violence against the police? Should we foreclose the good people in a community from complaining too much when they get lumped in with the bad people by the police?

Of course the thin blue line is a bad thing. And police officers should be nothing like gangs, where they threaten the officers who are trying to do the right thing and cover the asses for the criminals in their midst. But simply casting blame won’t solve anything.

I agree. The police should be better trained at non-violent solutions, to be better at community relations, to be more patient, less aggressive, and better role models. The police should be perfect.

But, once again, I don’t think it helps to ignore that the problem isn’t just the police. Of course they should be better, but then again, we all should.

You seem to be under the impression that I find the police flawless and that a solution to this major social problem is just better training. I’m trying to go deeper than that. But, hey, if you want to just blame the police for everything, have at it.

[quote=“Fallen, post:3666, topic:695354”]

[quote=“doorhinge, post:3670, topic:695354”]

[quote=“Fallen, post:3672, topic:695354”]

(underline, bold, and italic added)

“Disturbing” is the word you chose to use to describe your interpretation (ie People dying is a “red herring ”?) of what I actually said (ie I believe the numbers of officers killed in the line of duty are more important than the random red herrings used to justify the unwarranted burning and looting).

I felt the same way, disturbed, about your misinterpretation of what I actually said.