I think a lot depends on what words you use, and people tend to use them interchangeably.
If the question is whether such people deserve to be executed, or should be murdered or things like that, or if they wish for it, then I think the vast majority would agree with you. But if the question is: “how big of a tragedy is it if some thug gets killed in the course of committing a crime?”, then I think most people would think it’s not a big deal.
And I suspect most of the people here think the same thing in most circumstances. You see all sorts of Darwin Awards type threads in which people chortle at the death of all sorts of people, many of whom did nothing wrong other than being stupid, and all the more so if they did.
That’s how I look at it anyway. As a matter of public policy I would certainly be opposed to executing people for looting or robbery etc. And I certainly agree that there needs to be tight control over and scrutiny of the police because they have guns and enforcement powers (plus, IME, a lot of cops are power-drunk punks). But if I hear that some guy committing a burglary got shot in the course of the crime I don’t sit around worrying about the fact that burglary is not a capital crime. One fewer burglar, the world will survive.
How is it not? The officer was doing his duty to the community by using force against what he believed to be a threat, and he is entitled both to presumption of innocence and the benefit of a doubt. People taking advantage of the situation to rob and destroy have no such benefit and should be treated like the threat to society that they are.
I really don’t follow the logic in using the rioting and looting as a reason to disbelieve that Brown was killed unjustly.
Unarmed teenager shot by a police officer - facts re: events leading up to the shooting are unknown or in doubt
People affiliated with the shooter, related to the shooter, or otherwise compelled by the shooting hold a peaceful vigil and protest event
Other people, not apparently affiliated with the shooter other than by race, commit crimes including rioting, looting, arson, and assault
Somehow the fact that the people committing the crimes in step (3) are the same race and have some of the same anger as the people in step (2) means that the event in step (1) is more likely a justified shooting
I really need some help with the last step in this chain that goes beyond “black people rioted so the black person they rioted in response to probably had it coming”.
No, I wouldn’t. But I can understand that someone ELSE might do it. It doesn’t make it justified, or right. But I can sympathize with the underlying emotion.
I can understand revenge killing, but I wouldn’t do it, nor does it make it justified.
You seem to think “understandable” means “approved given the circumstances”, but that is not at all what it means. It means, “I can understand why someone would make that choice.” It does not pass any moral judgment over the choice.
(You really need to see Chris Rock’s routine about O.J. – “I’m not sayin’ he shoulda killed her, but I understand.”)
The friend that was with Michael Brown when he was shot has now given his rendition of the events that led to Brown’s shooting
The friend’s credibility about what happened isn’t the greatest. His reference that Brown was about to say he was unarmed and to stop shooting doesn’t hold up. Brown died, no one knows what he was going to say if anything.
It will be interesting to hear the police officer’s account of the events. I can’t imagine what he could say to justify his actions.
We don’t yet know if there has been a horrid miscarriage of justice or not. It is too early to tell, and it depends on circumstances.
There are several possibilities.
The facts emerge that the shooting was justified. In that case, no miscarriage of justice.
The facts emerge that the shooting was unjustified - perhaps the cop was a racist. The authotiries investigate, he is charged and found guilty of murder, and is sent to jail. A terrible crime was committed, true, but no miscarriage of justice.
The facts emerge that the shooting was unjustified but the authorities sweep it under the rug; the murderous, racist cop gets some kind of slap on the wrist and is out gunning for more unarmed kids in next to no time. A terrible miscarriage of justice.
Only in the third case has a “miscarriage of justice” happened - and, importantly, it is far too early to tell if scenario 3 will happen or not.
For rioting perhaps (depending on the degree of violence) but not for looting. The source you quote clearly specifies that the perpetrator must “pose a threat of
serious physical harm” So shooting someone for breaking a window and walking off with a TV is not justified, nor probably would be shooting someone lighting an (unoccupied) car on fire. However it would be justifiable if they were beatings someone up with a baseball bat.
No, it’s more of a statement of “Fuck my neighbor down the street and his livelyhood because I’m going to steal these tvs and break his windows because I want free shit and this tragedy is the perfect excuse because if I get caught I’ll just say I was upset at the police.”
Leave it to the left-wing racist asshole to excuse bad behaviur by a minority when it’s pointed out by a right-winger.
You can understand why someone ELSE would do it. You wouldn’t do it. Ever. But someone else - obviously a lesser human being, you understand why he would do it.
As I said, if you “understand” why someone would do it and say that it is possible you would do it too, then you’re justifying it. If you “understand” why someone would do it, but wouldn’t ever do it yourself, then you’re stating that that someone is a lesser human than you, that’s why it is “understandable” why he would do it.
It doesn’t sound like the friend is saying what Brown planned to say. More that he was in the process of saying it but hadn’t finished.
I would think one core question here will be the coroner’s report and the forensic evidence. If it establishes that Brown was shot in the back and/or from a distance, then it would be very bad for the cop. But if it was in the front or side and at close range, then not only would it bolster the claim of a struggle for the gun, but it would also impeach the witness testimony.
Do cops in Missouri normally make a habit of pulling up to pedestrians and shooting them for no reason? 'Cause the friend’s story doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, and our nation’s prisons are FULL of people whose friends will swear that they didn’t do anything wrong.
Your “rules” or whatever they are in that last couple of sentences are ridiculous and do not reflect anyone’s lifestyle, reasoning or viewpoints other than your own.
This board has seen a lot of really lame “gotcha” aficionados over the years, but never one quite as incompetent at it as you are. I’m embarrassed for you.
No, I didn’t say anyone is a lesser human being. Don’t put words in my mouth. People make different choices, that’s all. I wouldn’t make that choice.
Why do you think everything requires a moral judgment? It seems impossible to talk to you without you adding a judging veneer to everything. There’s probably a few situations where I would make the wrong choice, but a rioter would make a better one. There’s no greater/lesser here. Just different.
