Eric “Americans are cowards” Holder doesn’t believe in transparency or releasing evidence to the public. Otherwise we would now know the specifics of Holder’s involvement in his Fast and Furious gun running to Mexican drug cartels.
Fair point. I doubt you grab too many bullets, but what you said made me realize that I was picturing a defense against blows being landed. If someone were facing a gun, he might well extend his arms palms outward in an instinctive attempt to stop the bullets.
Yup. Agreed.
Sure, he probably only outweighed him by 60-70 lbs. Maybe a bit more. Not much at all.
You run with your arms down at your side? That seems odd. I know one guy who does that. We make fun of him all the time for it.
I’m no forensic expert. I don’t know if there is a way determine exactly what the Brown’s actions were by the bullet angles. Certain things can be implied but not proven. If this goes to trial I’m sure the prosecution could find experts to explain how he raised his hands in an effort to protect himself. And the defense will find experts showing how he was moving forward in a threatening manner.
The witness accounts right now are unofficial and contradictory. Dorian Johnson went to the press before he did any official interview. Right now we have no witness testimony under oath. Sometimes the story changes greatly between what is said in public and what is said under the threat of perjury. There were some reports that the Grand Jury might be today. I don’t know if that changed or how long it will take.
One big problem I can see Wilson having is that the case has become such a cause in the community (& country nationally). Most of the witnesses are probably members of the community, and I can see them feeling a lot of pressure to have their testimony conform to the “official” version which has been embraced so passionately.
I can agree with that. Clearly a bad guy who attacks a cop is more dangerous than the average bad guy. Which is why I’m one who wouldn’t blame Wilson for shooting at Brown when he was running away. He fits the pattern of someone too dangerous to let get away.
You’re clearly a very scary and very scared person at the same time.
I hate that this meme keeps coming up. I can find it plausible that Brown was shot while raising his hands in surrender and that Wilson’s alleged story (that we’ve heard third hand so far) about Brown “taunting and charging” him is not accurate. But I don’t find it plausible that he’d have “executed” Brown -on a city street in daylight- because he’d been punched.
It’s much more believable to me that at the time he was pulling the trigger Wilson genuinely saw Brown as a continuing threat, and that that’s how he remembers the incident. Stress greatly affects perceptions, and I think Wilson, who had just been easily manhandled at the vehicle by Brown and who apparently had perceived a struggle for his weapon and had discharged that weapon in the vehicle, was in a very agitated and fearful state and saw Brown facing him with his arms up as a menacing figure.
I’m OK with calling for the removal and replacement of the upper levels of the Ferguson PD, and an investigation and possible housecleaning of the St. Louis County PD, based purely on their recent histories and their handling of events after the shooting. (Flame on, law and order Dopers.)
But I’m not OK with calling Officer Wilson an executioner or even a murderer based on what little we know. And I think people should be prepared that even if it’s determined that Brown was trying to surrender when Wilson fired his weapon, there may be no indictment of Wilson because of Brown’s [alleged at this point] assault of Wilson at the vehicle and whether the grapple over Wilson’s weapon is deemed to have actually occurred. All of that makes a difference here I think. (If anyone with more direct experience wants to dispute or clarify, I’d be grateful.)
I haven’t heard any reports of Wilson’s weight but neither of those guys would be considered overweight. Two guys of similar height who are not overweight wouldn’t have a 60 -70 lb weight difference.
You run with your arms swaying, not holding one up in front of you to block bullets.
Dorian Johnson has a credibility problem. I’ve seen that guy on at least 3 different shows and never once did he say Brown robbed that convenience store. Then after he video came out he released a statement saying “oh yeah, he did that too”, but never showed his face again.
IIRC, the first I heard of Mr. Johnson was his statement that he had not been contacted or questioned by the police for several days after the incident.
You may, of course, draw your own conclusions about the eagerness of the police to hear Mr Johnson’s testimony.
This is why I feel dirty even partially being on the same “side” of the argument as some of you fine folks.
Do you have any immature, belligerent or unpredictable people in your family? Anyone who might push back at a cop if they felt they were being wronged? Would you find it a “loss” if they were shot and killed -justifiably or not- by a cop?
Now I need to take another break from this thread I think.
I don’t think Wilson actually said to himself, “I’m going to execute this guy”. But I do think he was so enraged after being assaulted that he just shot and that amounted to an execution.
According to what I’ve heard, the case will be heard by a grand Jury that meets once weekly, and that will also be hearing other cases. It will most likely take several sessions before any decision is made as to whether to prosecute Wilson or not.
Apparently, Wilson is invited to testify before the grand jury if he wants.
Source: MSNBC
Some more info.
Main takeaway: “But on the crucial moments that followed, the accounts differ sharply, officials say. Some witnesses say that Mr. Brown, 18, moved toward Officer Wilson, possibly in a threatening manner, when the officer shot him dead. But others say that Mr. Brown was not moving and may even have had his hands up when he was killed.”
Oh, and for morons who are still pushing “there was no robbery” bull: “A lawyer for Mr. Johnson said that his client was interviewed by the F.B.I. and the St. Louis County police last week for nearly four hours. In that interview, Mr. Johnson admitted that he and Mr. Brown had stolen cigarillos from the store, said the lawyer, Freeman R. Bosley Jr.”
Nope, because as soon as he does, he becomes a “cop-puncher” and a “thug.” No longer a person! Problem solved, no big loss!
Right there with ya.
Could you expand on this sentiment?
I agree completely. The main takeaway is that accounts differ sharply.
Are we to take it, then, that you find Mr Johnson to be a credible witness, generally speaking? A “truthteller”, as it were?
But he wasn’t running away. All the entrance wounds are in the front or top of the head.
So unless the cop was carrying boomerang bullets that can make 90 or even 180 degree turns in the air we can state for a fact he was facing the officer when the trigger was pulled.
Unless of course he was running backwards.
I am only going by the pictures. Wilson looks tall and skinny. Brown was the size of a 6-4 boulder. He was listed at 292 but I don’t know where they got that from.
Your arms swing. I don’t know if the angles prove what height his arms were. He could have also been advancing and raised his arm in an effort to protect himself at the last second. I don’t know.
You can not force someone to talk. When they have a lawyer you have to go through the lawyer. Multiple attempts were made to bring him in. He waited to to a media tour before he made himself available for questioning. Draw your own conclusions.
I think that is a possibility. If there is proof that happened I hope it’s enough to convict. I don’t see the proof yet.
I heard they were going to convene a special grand jury just for this case. I have no idea where I heard that and it may have been conjecture at the time. That would have its own problems if the jury hasn’t already been seated. It could take a while to get a jury together. And then there is the possibility of a federal grand jury for civil rights violations.
There are stories going around saying that Johnson changed his story when officially questioned. I’ve so far seen nothing to confirm that. Rumors have a way of being reported as fact in a media circus.
Probably depends on what you mean by “push back”, but if you mean at the level of punching the cop in the face, I don’t think I do.
If I had such family members I would probably feel it to be a loss for me personally. That has no bearing on whether I or anyone else would or should feel it to be a loss if this was someone with no connection to me/us. Most people’s relatives grieve at their passing, regardless of how much of a plus this might be to the rest of the word. (I’m surprised that you would think this is relevant.)
What do you want to know?