This was something I was putting as a response to part of a post in another thread. Then I thought about it, and realized this was worth a thread by itself.
I suppose this thread might be an overreaction, but it is sincere.
The original post (edited):
Everytime I see somebody (like Brent Scowcroft) on the tube saying something like this, I just want to reach out and smack them. Who do these people think they are? I realize that stern measures will be required to fight the people resposible for the terrorist attacks, but claiming that the United States should be less free so we can be safe? Of course, the logical conclusion of this kind of thinking is that if we turned our country over to a Stalinist regime then we’d all be REALLY safe, wouldn’t we? These people are so blind. It’s as if they sat around making up a checklist of rights to do away with once public opinion was on their side.
This brings me to the state motto of New Hampshire, possibly the greatest state motto ever: “Live Free or Die.” Or a quote from famous American Patrick Henry: “Give me liberty or give me death!”
Fuck you Scowcroft, and all those like you. You’re not going to give the terrorists exactly what they want by taking my liberties in order to make me “safe.” I will not cower, or hand my fate over to the government, which can’t really protect me anyway.
I was thinking about starting a thread about this topic as well, but decided that I’d wait until I saw someone besides EX-governmental jackoffs saying the same thing.
Until then, this is only unimportant talking-heads babbling about whatever turds float to the top of their shitbowls, er, I mean brains.
In this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=86675
I posted this:
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania 1759
These words ring truer today then they ever did. If we give up any “rights / freedoms / conveniences” we allow these bastards to win. What we do now is carry on as a great nation, salvage what we can from the wreckage, and strike swiftly at what ever we determine caused it.
I “cross posted” it here so I could add a FUCK YOU to anyone who disagrees.
“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.” - Patrick Henry
“Those who trade essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Benjamin Franklin
“Those who sell their liberty for security are understandable, if pitiable, creatures. Those who sell the liberty of others for wealth, power, or even a moment’s respite deserve only the end of a rope.” - L.Neil Smith
I’ve also been hearing a lot of talk by Fedgoons that we must “curtail freedom” in light of this tradegy, and that “some freedoms will need to be given up in exchange for security.” A poll immediately after the tradegy revealed that a whopping 70% of people responded “yes” when asked if they would accept less liberty for more safety.
Um, is this America?
The government has been waiting for a “good” excuse to take away our rights. Perhaps this is it.
i’m with you guys ideology-wise, but c’mon. hopefully not permanently, but we will have to give some rights up. freedom to travel is going to be restricted for a while. search and seizures are going to rise a bit. more police are going to be out on the street.
i don’t like it, but i think it’s the only sensible thing to do. our freedoms are the result of a balance between the needs of citizens and of the government. our equlibrium’s been kicked way out of wack. it is impossible, if not foolhardy as well, to expect the same balance right now.
let’s keep our goddamn fingers crossed and hope this will pass.
jb
jb, as soon as you can demonstrate to me that it is necessary to restrict freedom or infringe on constitutional rights to secure peace then I might side with you.
On the other hand, what good is freedom to have the right to be infringed on?
I’m with the op 100%. There is no time to get loosey-goosey with the Constitution… I think its taken enough damage as it is.
all of our freedoms, from the most precious to the most mundane, are infringible. but certainly not frangible. that’s what it comes down to. (to what it comes down?)
what rights we had before tuesday were appropriate then. those rights were not the objective definition of freedom, but one of many possbile combinations of individual freedoms which jibed with the american ethos.
now, the situation has changed. the balance is off. and everything is going to adjust, and redistribute. I agree with Crafter_Man that this is just the opportunity for the Federal Government to usurp a shitload of rights. So we have to be extra vigilant in securing our freedoms.
but, and this is a huge j-lo but, we cannot and should not expect our freedom to be what it was before. it has to fit our new situation.
what then is an appropriate range of rights? I have no clue. no indivudual does. this really does have to be between the government and the People.
jb
Terrorists or no terrorists, I will not accept any curtailment of my inalienable rights. These rights have little to do with earthly events, and certainly do not depend on any person or government for their existence. If anyone thinks they can now take away my/our rights because madmen have chosen to commit evil, the Fedgoons will have another war to deal with.
Well, not according to Abraham Lincoln. He stressed strongly in several speeches that the Constitution needed to be enforced regardless of the fact that we were fighting the Civil War. Of course, he didn’t have three buildings destroyed by airplanes, he only had to deal with half the country killing the other half, so what did he know? :rolleyes:
I’ve been incredibly quiet on this board, and on the internet in general, until this thing has had time to calm down and people get back to being rational.
But there was no way I was going to let this thread pass by without comment and without adding my support.
I hate to break up this exercise in breast beating and teeth gnashing, but would someone be kind enough to tell me just what God given rights are being or are about to be infringed. The televised blather of a potful of out of office politicians of the Brent Scowcroft and LTC(late of the US Marines) North sort hardly makes out a viable threat to Constitutional liberties. The last I looked there was no Constitutional right to, for instance, carry a knife on an airplane or curbside luggage check-in. I do, however, wonder how we back of the plane, stuffed in like cattle, coach-class passengers are going to carve our mystery meat entre with a plastic knife. In any event, all this hyperventilating about loss of liberty seems just a tad premature.
Crafter_Man, this is what I’m trying to get at. You already do accept curtailment of your rights, every day. There are practical limits to your inalienable freedom of speech. Even though the white house is government property, and you and I are members of the government, we’d be shat on if we hopped the fence and strolled into the kitchen for a late night snack.
there are inalienable rights. we have subjective versions of those rights. what freedoms we have most certainly do depend on a government for their existence, and by virtue of that fact have much to do with earthly events.
Jb_farley: I’m not arguing about practical limitations to my inalienable rights. I mean, you won’t find me gritting my teeth because I can’t bring my autoloader onboard an aircraft. What I’m saying is that I won’t accept the government using this disaster as an excuse to for them to take away the freedoms I enjoy on a routine basis in a private setting. I doubt it will happen under this administration, but you never know. Now if Algore had become prez, I truly believe he would use this as an excuse to curtail my 2nd Amendment rights, along with a few others.
It’s only fitting, Spavined Gelding, that CBS news just ran a story on this very topic.
The piece dealt with a ‘Total Recall’ type x-ray system (Currently in existence and fully functional) that illuminates the body and everything on it- From pens and pencils to pacemakers and pins in peoples knees. You name it- it sees it.
As the piece closed, the reporter noted that for privacy reasons, the subjects being x-rayed were wearing lead lined underwear so as not to expose their goodies.
I don’t know about you, but I don’t want my goodies airing on CCTV in and around the airport.
Now, obviously that’s an extreme example, but it’s important to note that not only does the technology currently exist, but its makers are actively marketing it’s technology to law enforcement agencies.
Again, an extreme example. But the talk of what needs to be done to combat this scourge on the nation is equally as extreme- ideas that you, me, or other regular Joe’s, could never conceive of are being considered and talked about.
At it’s lowest level is the idea to ban or limit encryption software of all kinds; loosen laws governing others the ability to eavesdrop on its citizens; Easing search and seizure standards and regulations; and, well, basically loosening laws on person liberties that we all take for granted.
Hopefully, it’s rhetoric that will subside as fast as it surfaced. But my fear is that the will of the many will be forgotten in the pursuit of the few.
Lincoln’s suspension of habeas corpus was legal, since the Constitution granted the President the right to do so “in time of war” or civil insurrection, I believe. What we are now engaged in is not a “war” in the conventional sense, or really by any objective measure.
But where is it written that being more secure must limit freedom? No where. Under no circumstances should ANY of our freedoms be changed in ANY WAY. Should the airports be more secure? Damned straight. The tiniest casino has better security than the best protected airport (till NOW!!!).
Here’s an idea: Maybe each and every one of us should get our own piece of the twisted metal from the towers. A chunk around four or five feet long, could be iron, steel, concrete, whatever. Then when someone suggests we need to “sacrifice” show that person the piece of wreckage, remind him/her that the sacrifice has already been made.
If the person persists, insert said piece of wreckage.