Fictional Debate

Well, believe it or not, we have a spillover from MPSIMS!

In this thread we were asked to list our favorite science fiction and/or fantasy books. DSYoungEsq criticized one of my choices based on its scientific inaccuracy. I admit my original response was a little snippy, as my feelings were hurt that he picked on MY choice and ignored someone’s mention of Battlefield Earth, which I thought sucked completely but was too polite to say so.

Anyway, I’m interested in DS’s viewpoint (and anyone else who wants to voice their opinion) and didn’t want to sidetrack the other thread, so thought I’d try to transfer the debate to the appropriate forum. Anyone who likes can sift through the book lists for mine and DS’s exchanges, but I will try to present our basic disagreement here. Hopefully DS will chime in and correct me if I’ve misunderstood or misrepresented anything.

DS/s seems to be that scientific accuracy is extremely important to any science fiction book, and failure to be accurate disqualifies a book as genuine ‘science fiction.’ I am not sure if his definition is this strict, or if he is simply saying that this point distinguishes ‘great’ science fiction from the merely entertaining. I also have the impression that, in DS’s opinion, such inaccurate books should be more accurately classified as ‘fantasy’ instead of science fiction, or at least that the authors should keep their books firmly in the fantasty realm. Maybe a new genre called ‘science fantasy’?

I can see his point - glaringly obvious factual errors in books of many genera have led me to throw them down in disgust. Also, I have learned a few scientific facts from reading science fiction and WOULD prefer that I not be misled.

However, I disagree somewhat on several points.

(1) While I had wondered about a few minor aspects of the books DS criticized, my knowledge of physics and/or astronomy was not sufficient for me to denounce this as scientifically inaccurate. Are scientists the only people qualified to judge whether or not a science fiction book is ‘great’ or not, because the ordinary reader doesn’t have the scientific background to recognize poor physics, etc.? Are scientists the only people qualified to write science fiction?

(2) This is, after all, fiction - and part of enjoying fiction is our willingness to ‘suspend disbelief’ and accept whatever world the author chooses to create for our enjoyment. As long as that ‘world’ is internally consistent, I can go along with pretty much anything if the writing is good, the characters are interesting and well-developed, and the plot line is entertaining.

(3) Most science fiction (including books by one of DS’s favorite listed authors) ask that the reader accept developments that are impossible, given our current scientific knowledge, such as FTL travel, indestructible spaceship hulls, telepathy, anti-gravity devices, ‘doctor’ machines that can regenerate severed limbs, suspended animation/hibernation, etc. At the very best, such things are based on some as-yet unknown scientific breakthrough. At what point do we draw the line at what is an acceptable extrapolation of current scientific knowledge and what is pure wishful thinking?

While I feel these points are most pertinent to the science fiction field, they can also apply to other types of fiction, so please don’t feel that you have to be a science fiction fan to respond. I hope we can have an interesting debate about just what does, and doesn’t, constitute a ‘good’, or even ‘great’, book.


God is love. Love is blind. Ray Charles is blind. Therefore, Ray Charles is God.

FYI, I believe there is already a thriving genre called “science fantasy”, combining fantasy elements (elves, magic, etc.) with rather more “science” than “fantasy” normally has. It’s kind of like the definition of obscenity–I know it when I see it. But it’s darned awkward to try to describe to someone else.

It’s kind of halfway between serious sci-fi and fantasy.

The publishing industry being the monster it is, the lines blur and blur and blur.

Just decide whether you like a book, is what I say, and to the devil with anybody who wants to quibble over whether the author got his facts right.

Granted, serious sci-fi needs to have good facts on which to base the story, because that’s the whole raison d’etre OF hard sci-fi, to tell a “what if?” story using science facts. “What if we lived on the moon?”

A story that was about “what if we were elves and lived on the moon?” wouldn’t need to have all its facts right. Actually, I suppose it wouldn’t need any “facts” at all–if you can buy the premise that elves could live on the moon, you’re not the sort of person who needs unnecessary things like facts.

Sci-fi has always been more about the nuts and bolts, about gadgets and gizmos and running out of air, than about the characters or sometimes even the plot. I don’t know how many Grade Z sci-fi potboilers I waded through in my salad days where the entire action seemed to consist of people taking out ray guns and shooting them. Why? Nobody ever explained, and as for a character’s growing and maturing–fuggedaboudit.

“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

P.S. Ever since the Pashley/CalifBoomer sock puppet scandal, I think we’ll have to quit joking about sock puppets. Suddenly it isn’t funny anymore, you know?

I’m shocked, really.


“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

I used to read a lot of SF when I was younger; wish I had more time now. One thing I recall reading about SF is that is a literature of “what if?” Scientific accuracy plays an important part, but the key thing is the impact of science and technology (accurate or not) on people and society. To further that, authors should be given a certain amount of latitude from proving their ideas are possible; thus we can read time-travel and interstellar travel stories with the technology assumed . Notthemama, your last paragraph is describing a sub-category of SF called “space opera”; I don’t know who coined the term but I am guessing it was an SF writer using it negatively for exactly what you describe.

Of course, I read your last paragraph but totally miss the fact that you’ve already described SF well in an earlier one. Doh!

I’ve always prefered the term Speculative Fiction for SF than Science Fiction. I admit that I consider scientific accuracy to be pretty important in science fiction. But SpecFic encompases Science Fiction, Fantasy, and that which fits between the two. Where SF is concerned, if it entertains me, it is good SF. But if it is not scientifically feasable, I’ll not call it science fiction. I’ll call it Speculative Fiction, its the more accurate a name.


>>Nomex underwear is optional for dragons. <<
—The dragon observes

coosa

I think that if your SF contains errors, then you can expect to get ragged for it. I believe that Arthur C. Clarke’s Imperial Earth is the classic example. In it Clarke’s main character has a “family tree” of clones. The explanation is that the original “ancestor” was damaged by radiation. So he got himself cloned. And that clone couldn’t reproduce because the “ancestor” passed on the damage.

Apparently Mr. Clarke had to eat a lot of humble pie for his mistake.
If the good squire shows up and wishes to dispute your points, allow me to recommend the following response:

Hmmmmmm I was keeping quiet about your example that I think doesn’t measure up.

But I have to draw the line with Larry Niven. That man’s book, “Ringworld” while entertaining, is not good science fiction.*

You will note the misunderstanding of evolution apparent in the Teela Brown charactor. The “breeding for luck” concept does not take into account the timescale neccesary for evolutionary change. A few generations of selecting for this trait would not produce the effect that Mr. Niven has suggested.

While Niven is a fair Fantasy writer, his works are obviously not Hard SF.

(On a personal note; My big problem with Niven is his dialogue. I think that this is the area he could most improve.)

Peace

PS- Killing GOBLIN? Is he on crack? Soldiers Live had better be awesome.

Scientific feasabilities? Sci fi by it’s very definition practically contradicts that concept! Sci fi deals with scenarios set in the future(usually) where the scientific technologies are perhaps far abounded ahead of our own. Who says that we won’t mastere the universe and can do literally anything. Who says we won’t be able to change the very laws of physics? This is Sci Fi folks. Fiction.

What if? What if that DSYoungEsq actually wins this debates and converts everyone to thinking sci fi as only with things with scientific feasabilities. Oh, what a sad day it would be. Of course this little story is only fiction!

~bored2001

what if…there was complete and massive DNA damage? :slight_smile:

I generally prefer my Science Fiction to be plausible. Maybe it’s a limitation of mine, but I like to see things which could happen.

It does beat science fiction thast is riddled with errors, such as, say, the goofy Arnold Schwatshisname’s time travel flick. It distracted me from what could have been a good flick because of all of the obvious time-travel issues it brought up.

Ultimately, though, I can dig Science Fiction even if it’s not too plausible, but when it IS - like most of Issac Asimov’s work - it’s fucking stellar.


Yer pal,
Satan

http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif

TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Two weeks, four days, 3 hours, 19 minutes and 29 seconds.
725 cigarettes not smoked, saving $90.69.
Life saved: 2 days, 12 hours, 25 minutes.

Just my $.02-- “Hard” science fiction is preferable most especially when dealing with the near future. The further forward you go, the more liberty an author is allowed. Glaring scientific errors are detractors in ANY book, sci-fi or not.

Primarily, the best science fiction is not about science per se, but human issues when dealing with utterly new situations not present in any other form of fiction. The best sci-fi are tales that:

  1. Depict a plausible reality that doesn’t conflict with known scientific laws.

  2. Tell a story that is original–one that could NOT be transferred to a western or a courtroom drama.

  3. Contain all the other elements required by good writing (strong characterizations, plot pacing, etc.)

Tales which fall short in these areas may still be good stories without necessarily being good science fiction stories.

I think there are just too many people who get too anal about science fiction… that is, they focus too much on the “science”. I have a friend who insists that there’s a difference between science fiction and sci-fi… that the former needs to be as realistic as possible and that the latter can be as far out as the author wants. It’s ridiculous, I know, but she’s almost as stubborn as I am. At least we haven’t killed each other yet… but just wait a month.

Anyway, I agree with the premise that near-future sci-fi needs to fall within certain boundaries… if someone were to write a story set in 2005 with star fighters, gigantic starships, etc. it would probably wind up really crappy, since most people would be thinking “There’s no way this can happen”. Fiction, you see, works like a court case… except each story is presumed guilty until proven innocent. All the author has to do is create a reasonable doubt in his readers that his story is plausible… and he succeeded.

Oh my Spam… I made an analogy. Help! Help! I’m maturing! Aaagh!!


-SPOOFE

Your friend is right. Among those of us who are real fans, there’s a difference between sci-fi (we pronounce it “skiffy”) and science fiction.

If it’s not scientifically accurate, it’s not good science fiction. It might be a wonderful story…but it will fail as science fiction.

If a fantasy is not self-consistent, again, it’s not good fantasy, no matter how well it’s told.

Science/speculative fiction is not just a genre, it’s a way of life.

Lynn

Excessive consumption of alcohol may cause you to roll over in the morning and see something really scary (whose species and/or name you can’t remember)

[Note: This message has been edited by Lynn Bodoni]

At the risk of annoying everybody, I don’t see what the problem is.

If you like your SF extremly technical, that’s great. If not that’s great too.
I mean, it’s not like we’re talking public policy, or any serious philosophical, religious, historical, etc. etc. issue.

For the record, I go for Star Trek levels of plausibility. As long as the assumptions are vaugly plausible, and don’t change in the middle of the story, All I care about is how entertaining it is.

The only recent SF error that irritated me was in the Matrix. The central premise was so flawed, and it would have taken so little thought to make it plausible, that it seriously affected my enjoyment of what was an otherwise excellent flick.


To fly! The dream of man and flightless bird alike! -Some general on the Simpsons

Ditto on the Matrix. If you’re talking about using human beings as an energy source. That was plain stupid in a techno-thriller, and spoilt the movie for me as well.

I think that whether that part of the Matrix was feasible or not, it was part of the central metaphor of the movie.

My question for the people who get anal about scientific accuracy was, geez, where have you been for the last three thousand years of literary history? What about plausible impossibility and dramatic convention? I mean, this is Aristotelian and Shakespearean literary device we’re talking about here.

To sum up: a ‘plausible impossibility’ is something which is impossible, but that’s ok because you’ve suspended disbelief. It’s better than a ‘possible implausibility’ because even though the latter is possible, it violates the suspension of disbelief.

A ‘dramatic convention’ is something which is impossible but you ignore that because it’s a convention. Just like Hamlet making himself inaudible by the other characters by going upstage and delivering a soliloquy. Or all the aliens on Star Trek being humanoid or speaking English. Attempts to explain away such a thing means that the writer’s not succeeding in making the audience accept the fictional universe on its own terms.

Matt_mcl said:

“plausible impossibility’ is something which is impossible, but that’s ok because you’ve suspended disbelief. It’s better than a ‘possible implausibility’ because even though the latter is possible, it violates the suspension of disbelief.”

Exactly right! I have no problem with Superman, Star Wars, James Bond doing the corkscrew car jump in “Man with the Golden Gun” etc. because everything that happens in these films is possible in the universe they are set in.

The problem is when something inconsistent happens. Something which makes you say “hey, what the hell?” And suddenly you’re not immersed in the story anymore, you’re back in your cinema seat with your disbelief violated.

For example, if Dirty Harry used the Force to stop a bad guy, it would destroy my suspension of disbelief. Not because I have a nitpick about the Force being impossible, but because it is not part of the Dirty Harry universe.
The “using humans as an energy supply” part of the Matrix was bullshit. Here’s why.

First they established that the rules of energy supply were the same in the “real world” part of the Matrix as they are in our world. They said the computers needed power, they said they couldn’t use solar power because of the permanent clouds, they quoted the heat output of a human body in BTU’s.

Then they said that humans could be used as an energy supply, which breaks the rules which they established from WITHIN THE FILM. All those bodies in vats needed to be FED.
Humans are not sources of energy, they are consumers of energy.

And there’s me in my cinema seat saying “hey, what the hell?”
Even it were feasible it doesn’t justify generating a virtual reality for the humans at all - just keep them asleep. No problems with escapees. Or the virtual reality could have been a paradise so nobody WANTED to escape. These aren’t even technical nitpicks - they are holes in the premise. Big ones.

If they had come up with some bullshit about the computers tapping the humans “lifeforce” so they could experience consciousness or emotions, this would have been acceptable to me. I could have suspended disbelief quite happily.

Okay, I’ll quit my anti-matrix rant/hijack and go away now…

Coosa: I rather agree with DSYoung that the “Dragonrider” series seems to be more science fantasy or fantasy than straight science fiction.

2Sense: I disagree with your comments on Ringworld. I think it is one of the most mind-boggling works of sci-fi ever despite a few technical errors. Niven may have been wrong about the timeline for the Teela Brown gene, but sit down and really think about the concept and implications of an alien species breeding us for a specific trait because they like us. (Also, remember Nessus the Puppeteer pointed out we humans were lucky because we had already met several species with superior technology and were still free, tough and prosperous. Maybe only a few generations were needed for the first Teela Browns to appear).

Furthermore, the scientific accuracy of a fictional work does not matter if it does not entertain us. In his novel “The Night Face,” Poul Anderson has occurring over a period of less than 1,200 years a key change in the genetics of humans on Gwydion. I might quibble with his science, but “The Night Face” is a great book with a genuinely heart-stabbing ending. It should have won the 1963 Hugo for Best Novel.


Armed, dangerous …
and off my medication.

(giggle) I always end up late to the party…

Let me start by correcting some false assumptions about my assertions regarding science fiction. I could do so by responding point-by-point to the statements made in my absence, but I think simply expounding my philosophy on the subject would do a better job (and be better in keeping with the idea coosa had in his OP) :slight_smile:

For those interested, the thread under discussion can be found here:Best Science Fiction/Fantasy It’s lengthy and it’s from MPSIMS, so be advised. :slight_smile:

Science Fiction is a specific type of writing. It often involves elements of fantasy, but it consists of a very basic writing premise, which, if absent, means that it isn’t science fiction. That premise is an assumption by the author of an advance/breakthrough/discovery of scientific nature (including fuzzy sciences) which has an affect on society, explored through the millieu chosen by the author. For example: In the classic science fiction story by Robert Heinlein, The Roads Must Roll, he postulates a future (well, it was HIS future at the time; IIRC the events transpire in something like the 1960’s) where society in America developes huge moving conveyor belts that act as freeways, on which people move without having to use automobiles, and on which restaurants and businesses can be carried. He then examines the social impact of a class of specialized employee (road technicians) who have the power to wreck economic havok by shutting down the roads. You can read this story in his collection The Past Through Tomorrow.

Let me give some examples of what are NOT science fiction under this definition:

Honor Harrington - These entertaining books are simply Horatio Hornblower set in space. The fact there are spaceships has nothing to do with the plots; indeed, the author, David Weber, does little to differentiate the challenges of a culture surviving on seperate worlds from the difficulties faced by England and others in running an empire seperated by large oceans.

Princess of Mars - And all the other Burroughs novels of John Carter and or his Venusian counterpart, Carson of Venus. These take place on other planets in the solar system, but they are totally fantasy; there is no discovery or advance that results in being on Mars.

Now, having described science fiction, we can begin to explore what makes for good science fiction, and what can go wrong with science fiction.

Good science fiction has certain elements: obviously, a good writing style; an interesting plot; a premise someone is willing to read about; a lack of incorrect scientific facts. I highlight this last part because it is over this issue that coosa and I disagreed.

Obviously, to be science fiction, there has to be something about the story that is not currently possible. On the other hand, the story shouldn’t include things we know are not true or cannot be true. As an example: it was reasonably okay for authors in the 30’s and 40’s to speculate about life on Venus and Mars; it would be horribly stupid to write about a civilization on Mars that left the ‘canals’ now. We know there are no such things: they were simply the result of low resolution photography from the early 1900s. So when you read something like Heinlein’s Space Cadet, it isn’t the fact that he has spaceships running around the human civilization of the inner solar system that makes you cringe; it’s the description of Venus as some sort of swamp under the clouds and the existence of amphibious Venusians that has you rolling your eyes and wondering what sort of idiot wrote the book (mind you, you probably thought something similar the first time you read the book after getting older than 15, but that’s another story).

This type of mistake should be differentiated from making an assumption of a future advance that seems to us unlikely. For instance, we currently cannot travel faster than light, nor does it appear possible that we shall ever do so. This by itself does NOT make fiction about interstellar travel stupid or bad. To assert that we cannot ever discover or invent a way around this limitation would be similar to a Roman citizen discounting the story of Icarus on the basis that man can’t fly. But, if you make an assumption that is too outlandish, it may make it hard for the reading public to swallow the premise. This is the reason good science fiction writers have stopped talking about spaceships that simply go faster than light; they usually substitute some sort of space folding drive or tunnelling drive, or they work with such things as ramscoops, light-sails, etc. and accept the fact that a trip to Alpha Centauri would take a LONG time.

Which brings me to what I said about the Anne McCaffrey Dragonrider novels.

First off, one has to keep in mind that the first of these books, Dragonflight, started out as a novella called Weyr Search that won the Hugo and Nebula awards in 1968 for best novella. The novella includes the material at the start of Dragonflight where the weyr riders (including F’lar) are on search, and land at the hold where Lessa is scheming revenge on the Lord, who usurped the position from her family and slaughtered all her relatives. Now, no one would call this novella science fiction; it was classic fantasy (dragons, castles, ESP, swords (or, at least, knives), a very medieval setting. It was only when it became a full length novel that Ms. McCaffrey mutated it into science fiction. How did she do that? She introduced the following idea: that the planet Pern was periodically subjected to rains of ‘thread’ which coincided with ‘passes’ of the ‘red star’ every 200 years or so, against which the dragons and their riders were a bulwark. Now all that alone is still fantasy, but Ms. McCaffrey wouldn’t rest there: she insisted on having her characters try to solve the mystery of the ‘thread’ and in so doing, attempted a scientific explanation for the whole thing. As originally postulated by Ms. McCaffrey in the first two or three of the books, the ‘thread’ consisted of mychorrizoid spores which emanated from the ‘red star’, a planet with a highly eliptical orbit that reached perihelion every 200 years. When the planet got close to the sun, the surface heated up, causing the spores to become active and attempt to travel to Pern, where they were a dangerous form of life that killed off native Pernian life. Into this situation Earth colonists had landed some years previously, then been forced to abandon their modern Earth culture and turned into the medieval culture depicted, but only after the original colonists had managed to begin a breeding program that, among other things, created the dragons. (whew!)

First off, let me say that I enjoyed reading most of Ms. McCaffrey’s works; I only stopped buying them when she developed that terrible disease of successful SF/F writers whereby instead of one book every year or so they end up publishing two or three every year, making it difficult to keep up with them. She used to write entertaining dialogue, interesting plots and fun stories.

But let’s examine the science fiction of all this:

Premise: a planet that reaches perihelion every 200 years resulting in a rain of spores on the neighboring planets.

We will dispense with the somewhat technical difficulty that occurs with this premise from a gravitational mechanics standpoint (frankly, none of the orbits would be stable and Pern woulda been in cinders long ago). What we have are two obvious errors that Ms. McCaffrey created in the premise: why wouldn’t thread fall at night (when it can’t be seen and, thus, can’t be fought in the air) and why does thread fall continuously for 50 years during the ‘pass’ of the star even when the sun interposes itself between the ‘red star’ planet

Hey, don’t get me wrong. I grok Niven. If it happened in Known Space, I’ve read it. Even the Man/Kzin Wars.

The man’s ideas have influenced my own. I used to favor off-planet colonization. Then I read The Mote in God’s Eye. I looked around and realised that WE were the Moties. We need to get our shit together before we inflict ourselves on the Universe.

[/Hijack]

Peace