Fifty Centuries of Human History...

Certainly an excellent point, but we’re talking about the value of these objects to an impoverished and war-torn nation. Look at it this way: you’re a refugee with no money and no food: what do you take with you as you flee your home? The photo album, which is worthless to anyone but you? Or the blender, which at least you might be able to sell or trade for food? Sentimental value is all well and good, but it doesn’t put food on the table.

So why aren’t you ranting about the unguarded hospitals? If we can’t/won’t guard hospitals, surely that’s the bigger concern than unguarded museums and libraries, no? In this I’m much less willing to cut our forces slack. Our first goal, supposedly, was the protection of the Iraqi people: who in Iraq needs our protection more than these people?

I’d say you’re confusing the objects with what they stand for. Loss of the artifacts doesn’t damage history or culture, it merely impedes our learning about history or culture. Which is a shame, no doubt about it. But there’s a lot of other stuff out there to learn about…

That’s not entirely an accurate comparison. I might use lethal force against an intruder because I don’t know if that intruder intends to use lethal force against me or my family.

I can’t help have some sympathy for them. They’ve spent decades under one brutal dictator, and most of them probably expect to be treated not much better under whatever regime we set up after the war.* I’m not surprised that a siginificant portion of them want to grab what they can to help themselves and their families, and damn history or culture. These are people who have spend decades being terrorized by their own leader, and are now at the mercy of a foreign invader. I don’t really expect rational (far less moral) behavior from anyone in such a situation. Mobs are a scary thing, not least because of the potential in every one of us to subscribe to that sort of mentality. I don’t think this is the sort of situation where blame can be easily and cleanly assigned, except perhaps to Hussein himself, who was responsible for the safety and well-being of Iraq and her people, and who pissed away that responsibility in greed and megalomania.

*I expect them to be treated better, but I’d like to think I have a more balanced view of America than someone living under Saddam’s thumb for twenty years.

Ha ha! Fooled another one! :wink:

Hey, I’ve seen all three “Indiana Jones” movies.

I’m not trivializing the destruction; I just don’t see any point blaming it on the Americans when it’s the fault of the looters. It was the “fuck the Americans” statement in the OP (which has since been retracted) that prompted my reaction.

Personally, I think trashing a library should a capital offense if it is done with the intent to destroy information (i.e. the actions of Nazi-ish thugs). In this case, it looks more like a bunch of money-grubbing crooks grabbing whatever valuables they could as the government fell. Still serious, of course, but should American soldiers have been there shooting the looters?

And I know for a fact that I am not an idiot, so your insult has no value. So there. PBBBBBBBTTTTHHHHH

I didn’t say it was the fault of the Americans. However, I do think they should have been guarding the museum. That’s all.

However, hospitals are first priority. And the reason I wasn’t ranting about THAT is that I didn’t find out until I just heard about it. I’ve been trying not to listen to the news coverage, because it only keeps depressing me-and I don’t need that right now.

Well, you’ve got a sort of point, but basically I’m looking at what matters now, today. I’m not arguing that these things have no value, but that their value is purely sentiment, and has no real effect on anyone’s life. As others have said, if the original constitution of the US were to be burned to a crisp tomorrow, there is absolutely no way my life would be any different, other than the fact that I would never be able to look at it. But so what?

I concur. Its like the killing in a mosque a few days ago. Iraqis protested the idea of American & british soldiers being on the mosques land, so they backed off to show respect for their desires & culture. then 2 people were hacked to death in hte mosque and we got blamed for not protecting them even though we were forced off by the people. Its unfair i tellzya.

I am assuming those artifacts are still in Baghdad, so it won’t be hard to collect some of them by offering reward money. In an area where $4 a day is a good wage a $500 reward could be very helpful for info.

I found out about the musuem at work, listening to NPR. I literally felt sick, and asked my boss to turn it off. I’ve only seen a few photographs, and I don’t want to see any more.

I, too, am horrified about the hospitals. I hope US doctors will set up some sort of fund to which I can donate to help re-stock them. Unfortunately, for some of the injured, it will be too late.

True enough, but I’d still probably take the photo album if I thought there was even the tiniest possibility that I could survive long enough to find food or charity. There’s always the chance that I can get another blender, but the photos are irreplaceable.

Actually, me being me, I’d probably try to take them both anyway. Ain’t no looter gonna use my blender! ('Course, it’s one of those big old Osterizers from the '50’s, made to withstand a nuclear blast, so it’s gonna outlive us all. Prob’ly be in a museum itself 5000 years from now, lovingly tended by FutureLissa…)

We have so many parallel threads going about this that I am getting tired of repeating the same stuff and I am not posting any links which can be found in the other threads.

To say it was not foreseeble is nonsense. Scientists had met with the US military and discussed prceisly this. And even if they hadn’t only an idiot would not think rioting and looting are unlikely in the absence of any police.

Under US law if you cretae the conditions that allow and encourage a crime to happen, as sure as hell you will be held liable.

The US military themselves have (sort of) admitted their mistake so it is just plain and utter stupid for the fanatics here to continue to defend them unconditionally.

I do. Folks can flame me all they want. I don’t care. Knowledge is precious, and to experience history is a wonder, which few of us will ever know. I will admit that from a political stand point, it is better that the US let the museum be looted than to have shot looters (which, IMHO would have happened), but from the stand point of human history, it would have been better if US soldiers were there guarding the museum, and other historic sites in Iraq, and shot those attempting to loot them. At some point, art ceases to become the property of the person who possesses it, and becomes the property of the world. It sounds crazy, I suppose, but I have stood in front of the statue of Athena in the reproduction of the Parthenon in Nashville, and simply saying that the place is a reproduction, or that the statue is some 41 feet tall, does not convey to one exactly what it means to stand there, before such a thing and behold it in all its glory. Too many of the world’s treasures have been lost as it is.

Unbelievable.

Unfucking believable.

I just don’t understand the arguments of the hardcore Bush supporters in defending the lack of guardianship of the Museum.

We might hurt or killed some civilians who might not have been scared by the Armed Marines and would have rushed towards them anyway.

Even if I fucking assume that these looters would be undeterred by the presence of marines, and I am being VERY generous in assuming this, this argument does not hold up.

How would you feel if the original copy of the Constitution or Bill of Rights was burned to a crisp because it was decided that the National Archives wasn’t worth guarding? Would you still hold to your argument that the original copy of the Constitution shouldn’t have been guarded, since guarding it would mean that the guards MIGHT have to hurt someone to guard an Old Piece of Parchment paper?

Well, Blalron, like I said earlier:

Anyway, the point isn’t so much that the marines might have hurt the Iraqi looters (although that is a concern) but rather that troops diverted to guard this museum might have left other, more vital areas unguarded or themselves might have been put in danger from hostile Iraqi soldiers. It’s not clear, AFAIK, wether this museum was in a part of Baghdad controlled by US forces or was still disputed. The presence of raging mobs would seem to indicate the later.

At any rate, the current situation in Washington D.C. is in no way analogous to the current situation in Baghdad. For one thing, there isn’t a hostile foreign army battling a corrupt and brutal dictator in the streets of Washington D.C. For another thing… well, no, that first thing pretty much covered it.

Its still a national treasure, and its still worthwhile guarding. You may think it is a worthless piece of old paper, but I certainly do not, and neither do many others. Nothing evoked within me a greater since of pride of country and connection with past than the sight of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence in the National Archives.

I would willingly give me life if it meant keeping priceless artifacts intact for countless future generations to enjoy. Sure as hell more worthwhile than guarding some fucking oil.

Brutus, imagine how enraged you feel whenever some nutcase protestor burns a cheap ass american flag, maybe you could emphasize with some of us here.

Well, tell me, Blalron: how many people have jobs because of the Constitution? Not the laws laid out by it, but the actual piece of paper? A couple of security guards and a few tour guides? How many lives has it saved? Anyone ever been whisked to the hospital by a Constituion-powered ambulance? How many people can a burning Constitution keep warm? Probably just one, and then only briefly. Interesting how most “priceless” items have no practical value. I’ve always said that priceless is just another word for worthless.

But hey, it’s great that you felt national pride by looking at this piece of paper. I get my national pride from living in a free, democratic, and prosperous nation, but that’s just me. Don’t let me stop your relic veneration.

Why is it Libertarian seems to be the only one with a halfway decent grasp on the concept here?

Okay, let’s break it down. First off, I agree, the destruction of the relics is a goddam tragedy. I’m no historian, my personal interest in history goes back to about mideval England at best. However, I’m aware of older civilizations, such as the Sumerian or Egyptian. I may not know much about them, but I have a vague idea of a few who’s and where’s.

Yes, it was a stupid, terrible act to destroy such irreplaceable objects, The Declaration is merely a few hundred years old- I’d liken the Iraqui destruction more akin to hauling off Tutankham’s coffin and melting it down for dental fillings or to have a machine gun gold-plated. It’s idiocy, pure and simple, and it’s a great loss.

BUT

Consider the tactical situation. Baghdad has more or less fallen, but the city is by no means “secure”. There are still snipers on rooftops, and from the previous weeks’ events, the soldiers still had to be very, very careful to be sure which were the sheep and which were the goats.

Suicide bombers, stragglers from the Republican Guard, armed and angry civillians and others that hadn’t quite gotten the message that Saddam was out, could- and did- cause all sorts of problems.

Yes, it’s true that few of those groups or individuals could have inflicted any serious damage, but all it takes is one Iraqui irregular with an old AK to shoot a soldier. Sure, we might cut him in half immediately afterward with a 25mm chain gun on a Bradley, but that doesn’t make our soldier any less dead.

Security for the coalition forces was paramount. All else came in a very distant second. No general or unit commander would risk any of his men unnecessarily. And ‘unnecessarily’ means doing something besides his unit’s primary task- which at that time was to secure the city (or at least his particular block) and sweep out the remaining loyalists and Republican Guards.

All other tasks came secondary to this.

The oil fields so many of you are whining about were a pre-war tasked objective. Saddam was known to be emplacing explosives and sapper charges at the wellheads in order to deliberately sabotage them against the invading coalition forces. It is also a tactic Hussein’s forces used when being driven out of Kuwait- and so it was a definite, known, expected risk. A major risk as well- as the burning wellheads take a great deal of time and effort to extinguish, make flights overhead more difficult, spew metric tons per day of toxic pollutants, and hamper invading forces.

Next, manpower was badly limited. I’m sure you’ve read the articles expressing how our own supply lines were stretched out, how some Marines were down to being issued just one MRE a day rather than the usual three since supplies were so hampered?

I’m sure you read how we bypassed entire towns full of loyalists mainly because we din’t have the time, supplies or manpower to stop and mop up each and every one?

Baghdad is a city of five million roughly the size of Cincinnatti. Every available man-jack was going to be needed to “take” it, even against such light resistance (and such resistance was not expected by all.)

News articles two weeks ago were wringing their hands about how Baghdad was going to be a bloodbath, there were going to be armed civillians in every doorway, soldiers with rifles in every window. We were going to have to take the city street by street and even room-by-room.

Well guess what- while the museum was being looted, the unit commanders were still thinking that, and were seeing enough scattered resistance that they were unlikely to assume otherwise.

The city was, by no means, secure. It is still not totally secure even today. There is still the risk of snipers or the occasional irregular popping out to fire a shot.

It only takes one bullet, and as I noted earlier, no commander is going to risk his men unnecessarily.

US Forces held relatively secure “pockets” in the city. The museum, unfortunately, was not one of them. Keep in mind, again, the size of the city- if your detachment holds a several-block perimeter and a relatively safe road leading back to your own ‘rear’, you do not- I repeat, do NOT dispatch a half-dozen troops to go two or three or four more miles into the as-yet-unsecured part of the city, and tell them to hold a museum against a mob of looters.

That, regardless of your feelings for the antiquities, is utter stupidity.

If they had a “mission”, perhaps. Maybe. Go in, grab this guy or that computer or this object and get back here, possibly. You do NOT send them out to secure and hold a huge building against a large mob of unknown composition for several days.

That is an excellent way to see your toops get captured or killed.

The looting took place over at least two days. How long might it have taken for word that a mere six or eight coalition troops were guarding a building, some four or five miles from their own “front lines”, to get back to a small group of irregulars or loyalists? Two hours? Maybe four?

And the next day, when the CNN headline screams Six Marines Killed Guarding Museum how many of you would have then said “pity. At least those ancient Sumerian vases are safe”?

Again, the unit commanders had a long list of jobs to do, first and foremost was “don’t get killed”. Next was “Don’t get your troops killed” and just under that was “don’t shoot unarmed civillians”. Then comes ‘don’t get out of contact with your unit’ and ‘maintain your weapon’.

About fifty or sixty items down, below “keep batteries in your night vision goggles” and “use foot powder to prevent fungus”, might have been “if you have time, it’s safe to do so, your unit commander says it’s okay, and you don’t have anything else to do, try and keep looters from stealing stuff.”

Yeah, it’s damned easy to say, “Why didn’t those govermnent fuckups send out some toops to keep this from happening? It’s a tragedy!”

Rule Number One in War is “Don’t Get Killed.” Sending antyhing less than a full detachment out into an unsecured zone, at a time when every able body was desperately needed for current tasks, on what was essentially an errand, would have been damn-fool stupid and very likely to result in completely unnecessary casualties.

Again, I agree the destruction is a crying shame and an irreplaceable loss. But neither Bush, nor the soldiers, nor General Franks nor the US forces in general are at any measure responsible. Not 10%, not 1%, not two-tenths of one percent… ZERO.

As others have said, even some hospitals have no US protection- and I’m certain it’s for the very same reasons- lack of people, supplies and time. Should we have taken men off tasks deemed more important than protecting hospitals to secure the museum?

The building was looted by Iraquis, at a time when the US forces lacked the time, manpower or security to prevent it. It was purely, completely and totally the fault of the Iraqui looters themselves.

Yes, in the following weeks we will likely restore some semblance of order, and I’m sure that some of the artifacts will be returned. I’m also sure that some are lost forever- either destroyed or will never be recovered. (There are still various works missing from WW2 looting, for example.)

But if I were a unit commander and I had the choice between securing the objective my superiors ordered- even if it was the Oil Ministry- and sending out half a dozen or a dozen troops deep into unsecure territory to try and hold a building of zero military or governmental importance, and have damn good chances those troops were going to get killed doing it…

… Well, there’s really no choice, is there?

Thanks, Doc, for making the smartest post in this thread by a country mile.

I see it the preservation of important historical artifacts as serving the function of connecting humanity with its past. Is it valuable? Yes. Can its usefullness be measured in concete terms? No.

I guess its not tangible to you, you can’t eat it, be warmed by it, or fuck it, so its worthless to you. To each his own I guess. I have different values than you.

Gee, ya think?

So, how many times did you see these paricular artifacts before they were destroyed? How useful were they to you personally? How much did you study them? Well buck up, dear friends. We got museums here too. Got some dandy ones here in tourist friendly Los Angeles. They got stuff just as old and maybe older. Admission is cheap, sometimes free.

If the Declaration of Indepence was to be destroyed, I’d probably be pissed off. I might even want a piece of whoever destroyed it. But I’d get over it (who wouldn’t?). Because the hisorical artifact is not as important as the ideas it expressed, ideas that would survive it.

As I write this, a thought occurs to me. How do we know what there? Someone posted a quote that said “the looters knew what they after, cause they left the copies behind”. (paraphrasing, obviously). How do we know that?

Hear me out. Someone in charge of the museum may have sold off artifacts and replaced them with copies. (wouldn’t be the first time that has happened) Or maybe some the ‘artifacts’ were out and out fakes to begin with. Now that Saddam is out of the way, and the US is in charge, people in the know will be by to have a look. Maybe somebody got nervous and planned this little riot to cover his tracks.

Or maybe I’ve watched too many episodes of Columbo

Perhaps the Kurds and Shi’ites living there had a different perspective.