An excellent point. Only by being disconnected either from the actual experience of combat or the simple logic of understanding it can a person conclude otherwise. Thinking of these people who claim they would give their lives to save an antique vase, but believe that liberty grows on trees, calls to mind the image of an old powder-wigged fop, sitting on his porch during the American Revolution, sipping tea and complaining about the flies while a battle rages in a distant field.
Hey Blalron, lighten up a bit, pal. I take umbrage at your distain towards all the:
Just because I disagree with you does not make me, or anyone else, a “hardcore” supporter of Bush. This thread has been nicely devoid of political pandering, and it’d be nice to keep it that way.
At any rate, you ask:
And I guess you must have missed all these:
I think folks’ point (well, at least mine, I guess I shouldn’t put words into other people’s minds) is not that it has no value, but that its value is all in one’s head. It’s artificial value, based purely on your (or whomever’s) sentimental attachment and need for physical proof or tangible connection to the past (as if one could have a “connection” to the past; again, it’s all in one’s head). I feel like there ought to be some Buddhist philosophy regarding this need for things, but I’m not sure.
But here’s a question. There was a time when museums were not the climate-controled, eternal storage devices they are today. Even a time when museums really did not exist. Cultures thrived. History thrived. The arts thrived. Why then is there an assumption that somehow we have been tragically crippled by this loss?
No, not all of them, just the one that made my ass itch. Have you ever had your ass itch? It can drive you nuts let me tell ya.
Thanks for correcting my spelling mistake by the way. The y/i dhychotomi always throws me off.
Ahhh so concepts are worth dying for then. The ideas of liberty and freedom are worth losing your life even if this may be all that there is. That is also a noble thing even though by dying you get nothing from it. We have no problem with young men dying to preserve our freedom and we shouldn’t.
But men dying to preserve our legacy is also of value.
Sure, you may not see that Vase or those clay tablets as worth anything but to those who claim they’d guard it see it in the same way you see the concepts you would die for. They represent a continuation of human life the larger chain in which we are tiny links.
To protect what our ancestors have left us means we preserve all that they have done so that we can be here today to argue. The first Writings, the bit of pottery or an old stone tool are the items that we have built our entire civilization on.
That concept may not be of any importance to you or have a practical purpose in your eyes but I think it is unfair for you and others to belittle it.
I don’t know…how about not invading the city until we were damn sure we had enough troops to both take the city and maintain order in it? I still don’t see why it had to be done in such a tearing hurry. (And yes, I’m familiar with McClellan’s desire to “wait until he had enough troops” for months and months…but surely we could have waited a week or two.)
As Miller keeps saying, we don’t have the knowledge to second guess the military’s actions in the city. I agree with this. It may be that they thought they had the means to maintain order and protect hospitals and such, but circumstances prevented them from doing so. Time will tell, I guess. (Or not.)
But the fact remains that, as a direct result of their actions, conditions prevailed in Baghdad that allowed these things to happen. They DO bear some (not all) of the responsibility, IMO (note I didn’t say blame).
And Libertarian,
…
I see that kingpengvin has adressed your (adjectives deleted) post, saying much of what I thought, but in a more restrained manner. So in lieu of saying something I may later regret, let me just say “what he said”.
[sub]I’m really quite pissed though. :mad:[/sub]
The fact that you think freedom is merely a “concept” makes me glad that people like the soldiers are out there fighting and people like you are in here carping, rather than the other way around.
I’d be the first in line to say that. It would be about the only really meaningful sacrifice those guys have made since this whole adventure in neo-con priapism started.
And I’d add that by dismissing the lost collections as a few bits of Sumerian crockery, you grossly understate not only its content but also its worth.
Let’s analyze some other unsubstanciated things that were said.
Paraphrasing here:
“So you are against the death penalty but you advocate shooting someone over a vase?”
How is this comparable. You have a criminal sitting in jail waiting a penalty. And you have a civilian in a war scenario looting a building protected by soldiers. Somehow these are equivalent situations.
“Is it worth risking human lives over a vase?”
This is the soldiers job. It’s tragic that they may die performing it but that’s why we admire and respect them. Or is the military useful only for military parades and homeland duties? And is there any civilian that will loot a building with a machine gun posted at its entrance and a few more soldiers here and there? If the soldiers lives are at risk then I say shoot the looters. Who’s going to fault them for that?
“It’s the looters responsility!”
Well of course it is. It is also the criminal’s responsability for sitting in jail. But it is the police’s responsability to arrest them. If the US soldiers were sitting around ignoring these events I contend that it was their responsability to stop these crimes. Here, we need some facts, I believe.
Had I the power, I would require you to visit the families of every soldier who died and say to them what you wrote above. You are a dick.
No, you.
(shrug)
Around 16% of the American population.
Actually, the US soldiers were busy with certain other events like snipers, suicide bombers, and land mines.
Oh, good argument. You know, if the sacrifices of the soldiers and their families are as meaningless as you say, then that makes your concern over the museum full-blown hypocrisy. If you cared about it so much, why weren’t you there on the museum steps helping to stop the looters? After all, you’re smarter than the soldiers, right? You knew it would happen.
Not sure I follow the logic of your first point but as for the second, I saw something basically identical earlier in this thread, i.e. “why weren’t you there with an M-16 protecting the museum?”
It’s a completely stupid statement to make, yet I will honor it with an appropriately patient response: In a nutshell, I’m not in the Army anymore, haven’t been for many years, don’t own any weapons, and am the steward of a museum collection here in the US which requires much of my time and attention. Satisfied? No?
Nevertheless, I welcome your insightful suggestions to how I might have gained access to downtown Baghdad over the last three weeks or so without military clearance or press credentials.
I am free to “carp”. If those troops were not in Baghdad would I no longer have that freedom? If Saddam were still in power would I not still have that freedom.
By the way those soldiers have no freedom. If they don’t want to fight anymore I’m sure they can’t just go home.
Ok mr Libertarian what is freedom except an idea that we practice?
I mean a bill of rights is a set of ideas we all accept as a society and practice. If we no longer believe it has power those freedoms and rights cease to exist. Look at Iraq right now. there was order and set rules and codes of behaviour that ceased to exist as soon as the populationstiopped believing the government had power.
But please let me carp some more…
(from Cambridge Advanced Learner’s Dictionary)
concept noun [C]
a principle or idea
(from Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
Main Entry: con·cept
Pronunciation: 'kän-"sept
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin conceptum, neuter of conceptus, past participle of concipere to conceive – more at CONCEIVE
Date: 1556
1 : something conceived in the mind : THOUGHT, NOTION
2 : an abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances
(from yourdictionary.com)
con·cept
(knspt)
n.
A general idea derived or inferred from specific instances or occurrences.
Something formed in the mind; a thought or notion. See Synonyms at idea.
A scheme; a plan:
All right lets say for arguments sake freedom is a tangible item. Those smashed things in the museum were tangible items.
You seem to miss my point but thats fine you have the freedom to do so. Let me reiterate… those tangible things have different meanings to different people just because you won’t fight for those values doesn’t mean someone else is wrong for suggesting they would or that soldiers… who are without freedom on the battlefield anyway should.
Hell if they are protecting banks with worthless money why not artifacts?
And I’m sure PFC Smith and Sergeant Jones would have welcomed your insightful suggestions as to how they might have parted the Red Sea and materialized at the steps of the museum while Iraqis were looting it. Your comments and suggestions are just like those of all the other disgruntled armchair generals: worthless.
I just saw live interviews with four wounded soldiers at Landstuhl. While relating their stories, they told of their concern for the civilians around them, the other soldiers around them, and the enemy forces who were firing on them. Wounded, bandaged, and in wheelchairs — oddly enough, not one of them ever mentioned any museum.
The Last Remake of Beau Geste (1977):
Michael York: Look, Digby, they’ve got our flag!
Marty Feldman: Well, haven’t we got another one?
Yeah. Thank goodness.
Actually, they volunteered. That’s one more reason that their sacrifice is so incredible.
Freedom is the absence of coercion. It’s something you experience. IF… you’re very very fortunate.
They first protect themselves. They then protect their brothers. They then protect civilians. They then protect property.
The Red Sea is located far to the SW of Baghdad, on the far shores of the Arabian Peninsula. It did not lie between coalition forces and the museum and therefore no parting of it was called for.
Geography, my friend. From my map room here at Armchair Command, I see that they were only about a 5 minute drive away, over streets.
Logic, my friend. It is a 5 minute drive away on a peaceful day in a friendly neighborhood. But on the day they entered Badhdad, it was a lifetime away — through a minefield of snipers, suicidal maniacs, and rocket propelled grenades. That’s why you remind me of the old fop sitting on his porch, complaining about the flies. Parting the Red Sea would have been easy compared to what you expected them to do. Like I said, better that they’re there and you’re here than the other way around. Let the fighters fight, and let the carpers carp.
Well that just goes to show that there are a lot, and I mean a lot of americans these days.
Maybe, maybe not.