Fight my ignorance over HIGH SCHOOL MATERNITY LEAVE!?

[Sunrazor]

Okay, I don’t whether to laugh, cry or stand up and cheer. The superintendent of the Denver Public School District has recommended that high school girls who give birth be given a four-to-six-week maternity leave during which time special efforts will be made to help them keep up with their studies. Details can be found here.

Some salient facts:

1. Denver has the highest teen pregnancy rate in Colorado (not really surprising, I guess.)
2. Students who miss more than two days start getting unexcused absences.

Now, I find myself caught between my rural “values” (unmarried teen-age girls having babies is not a good thing) and my liberal leanings (it’s not their fault, damnit!) The conflict comes because I have read accounts of “many” (no cite available) inner-city teen-age girls deliberately getting pregnant because (a) it’s a status symbol to be pregnant or (b) they want someone to love them exclusively. If true, both portray incredible ignorance of the condition of motherhood, yet both fairly scream about the life of despair and privation lived by inner city teens. But that’s only “if true”. It sounds just plausible enough to be true, yet smells faintly of urban legend.

To their credit, DPS did recently turn down a federal grant for a sex education program that would present abstinence as the only acceptable form of birth control, and will pay instead for a sex education program that pushes all forms of contraception and strongly promotes abstinence.

But will high school maternity leave negate work done to dissuade teen-agers from boinking or, if boink they must, at least not increase the population as a result? Are vast numbers of teen-age girls getting pregnant on purpose for reasons that are both self-serving and self-defeating? Naturally, people have taken radically divergent sides in this thing, so not a lot of creative thinking is being done. Anybody out there have any ideas about this?

[silenus]

No girl is going to get knocked up just so she can miss school (I hope!). Therefore the issue as far as the school is concerned is “How do we keep this girl in school and getting an education so she won’t be a drain on the system her entire life?” The moral issues are beside the point, as far as Education is concerned. Although I share the OP’s concern and offense. If maternity leave keeps them in the system and getting an education, I’m for it.

[miss_elizabeth]

What is the down side? Do you think giving maternity leave to pregnant high school girls will result in more girls trying to get pregnant, because that frankly doesn’t pass the smell test to me. We need better, more comprehensive sex education, but when it fails, I see no reason to abandon these girls. Making them choose between properly caring for themselves and their babies, or graduating school seems completely pointless to me. Can you give any reasons why it’s a bad idea?

[Bridget_Burke]

Generally speaking–if we’re against Ignorance, we ought to support Education.

And I’d like a cite about all those “urban” girls having babies for the wrong reasons.

[Lord_Ashtar]

@Sunrazor

(it’s not their fault, damnit!)

Can you explain this in greater detail for me please?

[Eonwe]

I see others have a similar take on this.

There is no down side. It is in everybody’s best interests for these girls to get a high school degree. So, we should find a way to encourage them to not drop out of school and become not only unwed teen mothers, but unwed, uneducated teen mothers.

[athelas]

I’m not sure where to come down on this, but I can’t agree with those who blithely claim there’s no downside. By making the consequences seem less severe, the policy will make pregnancy seem less scary. Certainly nobody will say “Oh, now I get to skip school. Cool, let’s get me pregnant!” but on a population level, there will probably be an impact. One analogy is that nobody will say “Oh, I get a $200 tax rebate for buying a hybrid that costs $10,000 more. I guess I’d better get one then!” - but tax benefits are a common and time-tested way to encourage certain behaviors.

[Eonwe]

@athelas

I’m not sure where to come down on this, but I can’t agree with those who blithely claim there’s no downside. By making the consequences seem less severe, the policy will make pregnancy seem less scary. Certainly nobody will say “Oh, now I get to skip school. Cool, let’s get me pregnant!” but on a population level, there will probably be an impact. One analogy is that nobody will say “Oh, I get a $200 tax rebate for buying a hybrid that costs $10,000 more. I guess I’d better get one then!” - but tax benefits are a common and time-tested way to encourage certain behaviors.

I think that depends on the assumption that the fear of struggling to finish high school is keeping significant numbers of girls from having kids. My guess is that most of them are not weighing the pros and cons in a long-term sort of way.

[Sunrazor]

@Bridget Burke

Generally speaking–if we’re against Ignorance, we ought to support Education.

And I’d like a cite about all those “urban” girls having babies for the wrong reasons.

Here ya’ go. I thought the reference was so obscure that it had to be urban legend. Turns out … not so much.

I’m not so sure the moral issue is either beside the point or less important than education. I’m an educator, but I think part of the education process has to be a commitment to morality, and as a near-atheist, I’m convinced morality is universal, not just religious.

This article argues that, while Americans overwhelmingly want teen-agers to abstain, they also understand that they’re human and need access to birth control. (It also destroys some racial preconceptions we have about who gets pregnant.)

I have to say, I get the feeling from most of the posts so far that I’m supposed to adopt an attitude that it’s not my problem, so I shouldn’t judge or preach. But it is my problem, and everyone else’s, to the tune of $9.1 billion a year. And in this specific case we’re talking about the Denver Public School District, largest in Colorado, which soaks up huge sums of state tax dollars, of which I personally supply a my fair share every year. So it is very much my problem.

Now, I don’t for a moment believe that providing day care, maternity leave or even free prenatal, obstetric and post-natal care will increase or decrease the number of illegitimate births by even one baby. My objection is that the huge majority of Coloradoans (okay, mostly Denverites) are being told to ignore the morality of the issue in favor of educating teen-agers. I’m not saying solutions aren’t needed – I’m saying this is the wrong solution to the problem. And I’m asking for some creative alternatives from the out-of-the-box thinkers out there.

[Jolly_Roger]

@Lord Ashtar

Can you explain this in greater detail for me please?

Well, maybe tthe girl got drunk at a party and woke up pregnant?

Seriously, I’d like to know that too. Because unless rape is involved the girl has to share half of the blame.

[miss_elizabeth]

@Sunrazor

Here ya’ go. I thought the reference was so obscure that it had to be urban legend. Turns out … not so much.

I’m not so sure the moral issue is either beside the point or less important than education. I’m an educator, but I think part of the education process has to be a commitment to morality, and as a near-atheist, I’m convinced morality is universal, not just religious.

This article argues that, while Americans overwhelmingly want teen-agers to abstain, they also understand that they’re human and need access to birth control. (It also destroys some racial preconceptions we have about who gets pregnant.)

I have to say, I get the feeling from most of the posts so far that I’m supposed to adopt an attitude that it’s not my problem, so I shouldn’t judge or preach. But it is my problem, and everyone else’s, to the tune of $9.1 billion a year. And in this specific case we’re talking about the Denver Public School District, largest in Colorado, which soaks up huge sums of state tax dollars, of which I personally supply a my fair share every year. So it is very much my problem.

Now, I don’t for a moment believe that providing day care, maternity leave or even free prenatal, obstetric and post-natal care will increase or decrease the number of illegitimate births by even one baby. My objection is that the huge majority of Coloradoans (okay, mostly Denverites) are being told to ignore the morality of the issue in favor of educating teen-agers. I’m not saying solutions aren’t needed – I’m saying this is the wrong solution to the problem. And I’m asking for some creative alternatives from the out-of-the-box thinkers out there.

What is immoral about a girl getting pregnant as a teenager? Ill-advised, maybe, but immoral? And again, you say this is the wrong solution. What parts of it are wrong? I’ll try to come up with some creative answers, but I’d need to understand what is wrong with this one.

[AskNott]

Let me offer a contrast for you. In my high school, class of 1967, a pregnant girl was booted from school the day the school became aware of her condition. The school didn’t want to condone teen pregnancy. So, in many cases, the girl became not only a single mom, but also a high school dropout. Only bottom rung jobs were open to her, for she had no diploma. Often, it was a path to permanent poverty.

In present-day Denver, a pregnant girl who chooses a full-term pregnancy and motherhood (and apple pie!) over adoption or abortion does not get her whole life taken away from her as a penalty.

[WhyNot]

Here in Illinois, the IEP (Individual Education Plan) program can apply if a girl wants it to. Whatsat mean? It means that, since pregnancy is a diagnosable medical condition, she’s entitled to whatever reasonable accommodations are given to other students with medical conditions in order to ensure their education. Whatsat mean? It means that if she can’t make it into school (and her doctor verifies that she CAN’T, not that she’s reluctant to), then the school must work out alternate education: computer learning, distance learning, tutors going to her bedside, whatever.

Unfortunately, I find most girls don’t know that this stuff is available and the responsibility of the school; they think they’re knocked up and their life is over and they have to drop out and maybe get a GED if they work really hard.

@Bridget Burke

And I’d like a cite about all those “urban” girls having babies for the wrong reasons.

I can’t answer for “all those ‘urban girls’”, but I’m one suburban (white) girl who had a baby at 18 (pregnant at 17) because I was mad at my mom. Or maybe because I hadn’t chosen a college or even applied anywhere. Or maybe it was because I didn’t know what I wanted to do when I grew up, so sponging off my mom as long as possible and having a baby seemed as decent a time-filler as anything.

All really shitty reasons for having a kid, IMcurrentHO. I mean, I’m glad I have him and all, but those are really, really *stupid *reasons for having a baby.

[Bridget_Burke]

@Sunrazor

Here ya’ go. I thought the reference was so obscure that it had to be urban legend. Turns out … not so much.

I’m not so sure the moral issue is either beside the point or less important than education. I’m an educator, but I think part of the education process has to be a commitment to morality, and as a near-atheist, I’m convinced morality is universal, not just religious.

This article argues that, while Americans overwhelmingly want teen-agers to abstain, they also understand that they’re human and need access to birth control. (It also destroys some racial preconceptions we have about who gets pregnant.)

I have to say, I get the feeling from most of the posts so far that I’m supposed to adopt an attitude that it’s not my problem, so I shouldn’t judge or preach. But it is my problem, and everyone else’s, to the tune of $9.1 billion a year. And in this specific case we’re talking about the Denver Public School District, largest in Colorado, which soaks up huge sums of state tax dollars, of which I personally supply a my fair share every year. So it is very much my problem.

Now, I don’t for a moment believe that providing day care, maternity leave or even free prenatal, obstetric and post-natal care will increase or decrease the number of illegitimate births by even one baby. My objection is that the huge majority of Coloradoans (okay, mostly Denverites) are being told to ignore the morality of the issue in favor of educating teen-agers. I’m not saying solutions aren’t needed – I’m saying this is the wrong solution to the problem. And I’m asking for some creative alternatives from the out-of-the-box thinkers out there.

Your first link describes programs set up to discourage teen pregnancy:

These programs help girls acquire skills to achieve life goals other than motherhood. Carrera’s program, for example, includes guaranteed college admission, employment, personal savings plan and medical services. In addition, the program focuses on teaching skills and values related to lifetime sports, self-expression and family life and provides sex education and counseling services.

To be most effective, programs must target high-risk girls early (before age 10) and help strengthen their families and provide educational enrichment and economic opportunities.

“We have to provide girls early with the support and skills they need to have a sense of control over their lives and the means to make meaningful choices,” Parrot concluded.

As an educator, I’m certain that you’re doing your best to see that your female students get the message. (And maybe you can have a word with your male students, while you’re at it.)

Sure, it’s better not to have children too early. But it’s stupid & shortsighted to punish young women for offending your “morality.” Ensuring that teen mothers lose the ability to get decent jobs probably costs society more in the long run.

Here’s a deal: Let them return to school, but make them wear Scarlet A’s…

[BrainGlutton]

@Sunrazor

Fight my ignorance over HIGH SCHOOL MATERNITY LEAVE!?

It’s the little-known sequel to High School Hellcats. Any more questions?

[Cat_Fight]

From the OP’s linked article (bolding mine)

Teen mothers face a challenging future, with many dropping out. A third of teen moms receive their high-school diplomas and 1.5 percent get college degrees before they turn 30, according to the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy.

[Lori Casillas’] organization advocates that schools provide child-care services for new moms. Too many girls drop out after giving birth, and schools must do something to keep them, Casillas said.

**Students at one high school in southern Colorado wanted to set up a child-care center, but the principal forbade it, saying it would encourage teen pregnancy, she said.

“There is no evidence that has ever happened,” Casillas said.**

While I’m sure there are some teenage girls who get pregnant for the attention, or to receive ‘unconditional love’, or to keep their boyfriend (or vice versa, with teenage boys getting their girlfriends pregnant)… perhaps having the girls in school for longer, getting gassy and sick in the bathrooms, describing their ripped perineum, haggard from sleepless nights, missing out on dances and parties… maybe that would work as a discouragement, rather than shipping them off to an aunt’s.

I’m also curious what the drop out rates are like at the high school for non-pregnant students.

[dangermom]

Well, I’m about as unhappy about teen girls having babies as it’s possible to be, but I would be all for a program like that. The way to help young moms have good, useful, productive lives is to help them get as much education and help as possible. The way to help them fail completely is to let them drop out of school because they don’t know any way to succeed.

Of course, it’s best if they don’t get pregnant at 15 in the first place, but how to encourage kids (girls and boys) in that is a different subject, I think. Once they’re already having a baby, it’s time to help them succeed with their life as it is going to be. I don’t know if more sex education is really the answer, since it seems that many girls get pregnant more or less on purpose. (I mean, I’m all for SE, but it’s not a silver bullet.) Changing the culture kids are living in and the social messages they’re getting is more what I would be aiming for, but that’s probably well-nigh impossible for people who just run schools for a living. If we’re looking at what’s actually a realistic thing for schools to do on their own–well, it’s SE and maternity leave. Otherwise, it’s a society-wide change we’re looking for.

[gazpacho]

I am of the opinion that the punishment for getting pregnant in high school should not be any more than having to take good care of the baby. If that is not a punishment to some girls then that is all the better the child and parent will probably be happier.

If the people who get pregnant were really thinking about the consequences of their actions they probably would not be getting pregnant. Kicking the mothers out of school just increases poverty and ignorance which have been shown to be pretty correlated with more teenage pregnancies.

If we really want to cut down on pregnancies we need to teach kids how to use birth control effectively. I know my sex education in 5th and 6th grade skipped this all together. I don’t recall getting to much more sex education later on. We know what causes pregnancies and how to prevent them there is no good reason to keep this a secrete known only to adults.

[AskNott]

@Lord Ashtar

Can you explain this in greater detail for me please?

I can’t speak for Sunrazor, but here’s some more detail. Today’s teenage girl has many options in her reproductive health. Some of them may be limited by her school system or her parent’s influences on her.

She was on birth control pills, and her partner used a condom. Statistically, that combination is 99% effective, but she’s the 1%. So, she took reasonable precautions.

She was date raped, either by drugs or threat of force.

She was sexually abused by her father or her clergyman.

She had anal sex (popular among pledged-to-abstinence teens), but some stray semen dripped down to her vagina.

She gave oral sex (see above), then kissed her partner before he gave her oral sex.

Both her school and her parents taught abstinence-only sex ed. So, she had no knowledge of contraception, or worse yet, misinformation whispered in locker rooms. So, her partner pulled out early, poured Coca-cola® into her, or “knew” that she couldn’t get pregnant if they had sex standing up. Dedicated sperm cells made a commando raid on her egg.

Her parents had always said, “You can talk to us, no matter what,” but when she told them she planned to have an abortion, she was grounded or threatened until it was too late.

So, Lord Ashtar, how many of these examples involved the girl’s intent to have a full-term pregnancy? In how many is it “her fault” she had a baby?

[Sateryn76]

@miss elizabeth

What is immoral about a girl getting pregnant as a teenager? Ill-advised, maybe, but immoral? And again, you say this is the wrong solution. What parts of it are wrong? I’ll try to come up with some creative answers, but I’d need to understand what is wrong with this one.

For me, it’s not a question of whether having sex is immoral.

The immoral part is hurting your child. Getting pregnant in high school (and I was just barely out when I got knocked up) will very likely condemn your child to a life of poverty in many circumstances. You may provide a home full of love and life lessons, but many of these children still end up in bad trouble, or with emotional or social baggage that effects their lives forever.

It’s very apparent to me that teenagers are going to have sex. Period. And I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing. However, the girls and boys who produce children unthinkingly should be shamed somehow…

I’ve been thinking lately about how social stigma was actually a very useful tool to prevent certain behaviors, particularly with children. I know that certain stigmas were silly if not downright harmful, but it seems like there should be a way to use it effectively.

In my gut, I don’t think that a maternity leave program is a good one. It makes allowances for behavior that should be discouraged. In my high school, if you got knocked up, you attended a night high school program with flexible rules, and got your diploma that way.

I don’t think teenage mothers should be ostracized, but I can’t imagine the nightmare of administering a program in a public high school that I’m sure is already up to its eyeballs in “programs” and “testing” and such. I mean, how exactly would this work? Would they be able to pick up homework, like if a student had mono? And, they would still be missing lectures, so would they get a pass on the test over that chapter? Or would already overworked teachers have to record everything and prepare special materials?

It just seems like another expensive, time-consuming responsibility for a public school system to benefit a group of people that made an irresponsible mistake.

Excuse my rambling, but being a pregnant 18 year old who turned out okay so far makes me particularly sensitive to these things…