Aww. Well, thanks for keepin’ it real with me, Hakuna. I guess I have to bank on “8 on Your Side” news team.
Well I would at least contact the Fire Marshall. But my gut tells me that it isn’t the same as say putting a chain on a actual egress door. I can’t see the whole area, but I assume that people can walk between those vertcal posts? It is just that someone with a wheelchair can’t get through? If that is the case then it is likely they will say someone could/would carry someone through there. But you never know—I will tell you, Fire Marshalls are the wild card in the building industry. They are all over the map and I have had to do things just because that is what the Fire Marshall wanted. Didn’t matter what the code said. So it is worth a call, just don’t pin your hopes on it.
Start filing mulitple law suits, like this guy. He was actually barred from filing any more lawsuits in CA. Not comparing you to him, but this thread reminded me of it. I thought this was pretty funny:
I’ll just state I think they will do something. I won’t argue, because there is no point. It’s an easy call to find out for the OP.
I am off of work in one and a half hours. If that chain is still on that gate, we will have our answer. Because I am definitely gonna give the fire marshall a call.
Thing is, most buildings which a wheelchair-bound person cannot get out of, they also cannot get into. In the 3rd floor scenario above - if the wheelchair-using person cannot use the elevator (not compliant/door not wide enough) how in heck did they get to the 3rd floor at all?
What’s unusual about the scenario in the OP is that the entrance is wheelchair accessible but the exit is not (it is not… egressible?). So there is a (relatively) high likelihood that the structure will contain actual wheelchair bound people unable to exit the building, as opposed to a 3rd floor walk-up apartment.
True to an extent. However in case of a fire typically they close the elevators off and utilize a emergency egress spot on the stair landing for people in wheelchairs. Stairs are the exit out of a building, not the elevators. However I have heard talk of using elevators for egress but I don’t believe that has happened yet.
An ADA elevator has certain dimensions, etc that older elevators didn’t have which make them easier to use for wheelchairs. However that doesn’t mean if you are in a wheelchair you couldn’t get into the older elevator, it just is difficult. So in reality you actually could have people in wheelchairs on that third level with the older elevator, but in case of a fire they likely would be evacuated via the stairs as opposed to the elevator, ADA compliant or not.
All the ADA did was make sure there are certain standard clearances, etc for access. And ADA isn’t just people in wheelchairs, it is all disabilities such as sight, sound as well as ambulatory disabilities. I was just using the third floor scenario as an example of how older buildings aren’t typically required to be brought up to current ADA standards unless major renovations occur.
Frankly I think a better option for this situation would be to set the gate up to a buzzer/alarm. So if the door is opened someone from inside can hear it and come out and investigate. Seems like a simple solution.
In full disclosure I have much more experience with the FHA vs the ADA, but they are similar.
When I was in H/R I worked a lot with ADA compliance and the ADA will allow you to make “reasonable” requests of those who are disabled.
Doors and gated areas a such things that usually qualify as resonable, for instance, ringing a buzzer to alert someone to opening the gate is reasonable. It doesn’t sound like the accommodation is reasonable, but you can be it would be argued as such.
Other things also can override the ADA. For instance, I worked in a hotel that was a designated a historical landmark. It was built in a time when elevators were very small, so people in wheelchairs for instance, would have to be escorted up through the service entrance which the housekeepers used. It was big so their carts would fit.
The historical landmark designation prohibited making any changes to those elevators. BTW it was also difficult the few times the paramedics were called as they couldn’t put the stretcher in the two main elevators as they were so small.
So if a disabled wheelchair person wanted to move up and down he’d have to contract the front desk to have someone allow them access through the service elevator.
The ADA states that you must be able to get from point A to point B, it doesn’t say it has to be easy, just “reasonable.”
True. There is also a quite simple solution to the problem – have the key to the gate at customer service or at whichever register is open, in order to allow wheelchair-bound patrons (or shelf-stocking vendors with dollies) to exit. This requires no architectural change whatsoever – just a change of store policy – and could be mandated by ADA compliance, especially since wheelchair-bound patrons can get in but not out.
Sounds like that is the real source of this problem.
So you can’t push the grocery cart out in the lot to load into your car? I can’t imagine that people would stand for that! They sure wouldn’t around here.
Our local grocery stores do have devices on the shopping cart wheels that lock the wheels if they go past the edge of the parking lot. But you can certainly push them out of the store and out to your vehicle.
Well, folks put up with a whole lot at this store. Dirty floors, filthy bathrooms and produce that is wilted and limp.
No reason at all to go to this store, short of paying a phone bill or getting a money order. Wegmans is just a few short miles away, and it has spotless floors and fresh, crisp produce. But most of Tops’ customers are from right there in that neighborhood, and I guess they just don’t feel that finding a great place to grocery shop is high on their list of needs.
Now, for an update.
I rode past the store to confirm the lock was still up. It is.
I called 411 and asked for the number for the fire marshall’s office. I was connected. The gentleman mumbled a greeting, but I didn’t catch what he said:
Me: Is this the fire marshall’s office?
Him: How did you get this number
Me: I asked directory assistance for a non-emergency number for the fire marshall’s office
Him: You should be calling 311
Me: Sorry.
I call 311
Her: This is Tracy (or whatever) how can I help you?
Me: (tells a brief summary of the story, asks what action if any can be taken)
Her: Ma’am, Tops is a private business. This is a civil matter. It isn’t a matter for the police.
In my telling of the story, I had stated that I was hoping the fire marshall could have them remove the lock. But Tracy wasn’t having any of it. Civil matter, she said.
Tomorrow, I give channel 8 news a shot.
So they gave you the police instead of the fire department? This was about meeting fire code and not trapping a disabled person so they should have acted. Like you said time for the harder way that by the way the officials will hate. Too bad they blew you off.
I don’t have any advice to give, I’m in England so I don’t know the laws. I just wanted to say how nice it is to hear someone taking on a cause for the benefit of other people. Good on you!
You could also look up the official government website of the city or town where this is and find out what type of Commission on Disability exists. I think there has to be one. They would also be interested in finding out about accessibility issues and would have some experience in resolving them.
As a wheelchair-user, I’m interested in the outcome of this story. Sadly, it doesn’t surprise me that, so far, no one but you seems to give a crap. I agree with those who have suggested involving news media; maybe a good public shaming is the only way to get the company to care.
Ill probably be back in Rochester first weekend of November, I can toss my chair in the car and come out and you can take pictures of me, i would be a willing volunteer and no problem with being dissed =)
One “conservative” viewpoint that businesses have is " Why should we “improve” something for a lot of money that will only benifit a small percentage of people?"
That’s why there was some conservative protesting about the ADA.
The way to effect change is to point out that ADA compliance in this case, could also benifit parents with strollers. Parents with strollers often deal with the same issues that wheelchair users deal with. Therefore you could point out that if parents with strollers could get in and out of the entrance, then that would mean more money!
Yeah, but are you willing to really ham it up?
AboutAsWeird, the thing is, these managers just don’t care. I mean, I don’t think they care if Tops makes more money or not. They just seemed so…disinterested.
depends on how you want it hammed …
And my funny Rochester grocery store story … the Wegmans in Pittsford Plaza, kosher food aisle and a bottle of pork flavored gravy mix. :smack:
Stupid manager just did not seem to be able to understand why it should not be placed there.
Granted it was only flavored, but to keep kosher it is also the appearance not just the reality [you really can not seeth a chicken in its own milk…no matter how hard you try]
You know, I am surprised at Wegmans! Usually, they (especially the one in Pittsford) bend over backward to please.
I don’t think we have a local “8 on Your Side” anymore. I tried finding them on line and couldn’t find them. I looked up channel 8 news on wiki and it mentions a former reporter with ‘8 on your side’. Maybe it doesn’t exist anymore.
I wonder if this websiteis legit. What do you guys think? 'Cause I am all about paying the 7.99 to get someone to pick up this story for me.