Fighting the War on Terror in the long term

Whew. this is a bit of a long one. I’m definitely saving it after this is done. Also BTW, I’m not as new as my post count would indicate - I switched names from David, God of Frogs.

The War on Terror is an epic struggle, akin to the Cold War. Our adversary, like then, has a distinctly anti-market (with their prohibitions on usery) and even anti-democratic ideology, making it difficult to reason with on even a basic level. Still, they are very entrenched – most Muslim populations are more radical than their unelected rulers – meaning that this problem will not be going away soon. In fact, the main difference between now and then is that now the power is dispersed among various religious figures, instead of heavily concentrated in one regime. In other words, the threat is from the right, rather than the left – but it’s otherwise almost exactly analogous.

Previous approaches to this war have not drawn this historical connection out vary far. The conventional response from the left is to bring out divisions within Islam in the hopes of provoking change from within – but this won’t work any more than pointing out the differences between Leninist and Maoist communism would have brought down the Soviet Union. Neoconservatives have looked to promote democracy in the Middle East – but their approach lacks any sort of endgame to make people vote the way we actually want them to, analogous to Keenan’s plan to make the Soviet Union to collapse as it did. Both of these approaches draw heavily from our experiences in the Cold War, but we can get even further by drawing from some of its more subtle lessons.

The reason why it took so long during the Cold War to convince the world of our moral superiority over the USSR was that we did indeed have something to learn from Communism. Here at home, the Cold War gave political impetus to the civil rights movement of the 60’s, and kept the gap in the distribution of wealth from growing too wide. One has to recognize that political Islam does at least appear to have some aspects that are superior to our Western rationalism – their use of charity to help run a society, but also its ability to take a hard line when necessary – and we need to show that we can use democracy to achieve those same ends.

The guiding principles here are variants of the guiding principles of the Cold War – containment and mutually assured destruction. In this case, there is no direct MAD, because no terrorist group is going to get their hands on the multitude of bombs the USSR had. On the other hand, those bombs they do manage to acquire, they are almost certain to use. We need to have an official policy that a nuclear attack will be met by a nuclear attack – even lacking completely verifiable intelligence on the source, as will probably be the case. Since it will probably be the Muslim world that will bear the brunt of such an attack, any potential nuclear terrorist will know that Muslim popular opinion will turn against them instantly. Hopefully we will never have to use this policy, but only by stating it in advance will it have any kind of deterrent effect.

Containment, in contrast to during the Cold War, will actually be a relatively peaceful exercise. Since this is mostly a matter of ‘soft power,’ we will need to surround the Islamic world on all sides. The way to do this is by encouraging global free markets and political collaboration. For the US, in the short to medium term, this will probably mean closer ties to China. While we should still press for democracy, and make it clear that we will not get into any Asian land wars, we should also welcome them as a diplomatic partner – perhaps even taking the place of Europe, whose strategic importance has waned since the end of the Cold War.

With only a few exceptions, our foreign policy during the War on Terror can be taken as an analouge to Cold War policies. Microfinance, for instance, is a unique product of democracy and free markets. It is not entirely a free-market affair – it needs charitable ‘subsidies’ to establish itself before it becomes profitable – but once it does, it brings the free market to large numbers of people who have never experienced it before. The World Bank, and the other ‘Bretton Woods’ institutions, were established as gargantuan free-market entities to challenge the totalitarian rule of the communist USSR. Nowadays, since the threat comes from below, it is important that we establish free-market institutions that work on the individual level.

Foreign aid is often seen as the antithesis of democracy – it’s almost a given that a politician can win support by cutting aid budgets. The best way to get around that is to offer the aid in-kind, as a kind of consulting service, rather than as direct goods. For instance, Africa is a region that has a fair amount of natural resources, yet tends to squander it due to incompetent management and political infighting.

This is obviously a centuries-old problem, and we probably will not be able to abolish it, but one historically recent opportunity for sub-Saharan Africa is their relationship with China. Chinese investors have been putting money into African real estate, and China is interested in securing Africa’s oil resources for its growing energy demand. This represents a bargaining chip that may come in handy in the future – a unified African leadership could threaten China’s holdings in exchange for some sort of protection, both economic and military.

It is important to keep ideas like this one flowing, which is why it’s in the government’s interest to promote the think tank ‘industry.’ During the Cold War, we funded the Voice of America, to challenge the lies the USSR was built on. However, nowadays, the issue isn’t the availability of the news, but its accessibility. The free exchange of ideas is one of the hallmarks of democracy, and if we fund ‘ideas factories’ like these, it represents a wager that our ideas will prove superior to those of a religiously oriented society.

Christian sub-Saharan Africa is just one front in political Islam’s war with the world, which as they see it includes struggles against Hindus, Buddhists, communist atheism, and Judaism. In India, they are actually doing just about everything they need to be doing – they are a functioning secular democracy. In fact, they’re so stable that we don’t particularly need to be offering them incentives to stay that way. Bush’s recent nuclear deal with them (if it goes through, assuming it wasn’t just a domestic political ploy) serves no purpose, and can only increase the chances that nuclear weapons get into the hands of terrorists.

Buddhists in Thailand are another point of friction with the Muslim world. Fundamentalist Buddhism may seem like a contradiction to western ears, but it does exist - to the point where the leaders of some Buddhist countries will actually get elements of their policy from astrologers. This obviously is no better than any other kind of fundamentalism, and has to stop. A book I recently ran across called The Tao of Democracy (disregarding the fact that Taoism isn’t quite Buddhism, and that the authors are nutcases) nevertheless points to how we can ‘market’ these ideas to this part of the world.

Europe (as well as Russia) may be going too far in the secular direction, to where they end up actually discriminating against religion. While they probably handled last year’s cartoon crisis about as well as they could have, France’s laws against wearing head scarves are symbolic and counterproductive. Britain’s laws against free speech are even worse – the use of force doesn’t help us except directly in response to force, or unless there is good reason to think that it would directly prevent the use of force. Some of the above applies to the US too.

Finally, the Israeli-Palestinian situation is not as complicated as it is often made out to be. While of course the Palestinians are at fault for lots of things, Israel hasn’t been doing all it can either to prevent Palestinian violence, for instance by taking a hard line on settlements. We had reason to support Israel during Cold War as an anti-communist ally, but now, their mistakes don’t just affect them – they also come back to hurt us. We need to cut off our aid to them, which I honestly don’t really understand in the first place, and consider even tougher measures if necessary. We should also not unduly punish the Palestinian people for their votes in a democratic election – our campaign to promote democracy in general is more important than the outcome in one particular country. We need to put pressure on both sides until they start to act more peaceful towards each other, or else the situation risks spiraling more out of control than it has already.

The only region where I’d recommend not applying this Cold-War type philosophy is Latin America. (I’ve mostly left out Asia, because this part of the world tends to have strong, functional, state structures, and while these aren’t the ideal way to run things, they do take care of the terrorism problem themselves.) Terrorists have made somewhat of a showing in South and Central America, but only as strategic allies – they have never tried very hard to justify themselves, and they will probably never have the support of much of the population at large.

Unlike Europe, which had military control over its colonies, when the Monroe Doctrine made Latin America our colony, our control was implicit – and it therefore never ended definitively as with the rest of the world. We are still in the process of letting them go, and the reason that free trade keeps having detrimental effects in that part of the world is that it weakens our colonial grip. Taking too hard a line here could risk blowback in a war that has nothing to do with this, just as supporting Bin Laden during the Cold War turned out not to be in our interests for the War on Terror.

We also will not be able to tackle the Chinese democracy problem directly anytime soon, but this is another area where encouraging China’s relationship with Africa will help. The Chinese government has skillfully kept itself in power, despite sporadic opposition, by making the various opposition groups mistakenly think their disputes are with the government instead of each other. The missing piece of a revolution is political education for the peasants. Being made into pawns, despite the obvious drawbacks, will provide a valuable lesson in politics that they can then take back to the mainland, to scare the regime into opening up.

All of these ideas benefit their respective parts of the world, but they also benefit us. Africa’s relationship with China protects them, helps the Chinese, and for us, it draws enemy fire to a harder target. This is the principle that democracy is founded upon - the rational pursuit of self-interest - at its best. In a sense, while the Cold War was won by standing down and assuaging Soviet fears, this one will be won by playing out their every conspiracy theory. It’s in our interests to make sure the whole world, other than the Muslim world, becomes economically and politically successful, because only as the hard-line Mullahs and other Muslim opinion leaders become more shrill do they start to lose their credibility and be replaced by equally respected moderate leaders – and can we say that we’ve actually won the War on Terror.

Goodness, where to start?

First, I think you have some good ideas. However, I think you’re making some flawed assumptions. First, and most importantly, that the “War on Terror” actually exists. It’s really protecting a country’s interest against terror, which is what most of the world has been doing, and the US merely got reminded about in 2001, despite the evident threat displayed in 1993.

The above is flawed. I suggest that any potential nuclear attack by the US/west on a Muslim target will have the diametrically opposite effect to what you propose, regardless of who attacked the US/west.

This I see as quite reasonable.

…providing you can get SOCAS working, like it isn’t at the moment. The secular monetarist word of the US sounds like Christian dogma to the religiously ideologically blinkered, and further, any irreligious ideas will seem heresy, so you need to handle that, too.

While I am not in favour of the policies of Thaksin and his cronies, Thailand is about the most successful capitalist democracy in Asia - I don’t think you should “have to stop” anything. And leaders/astrology… Ronald Reagan, glass houses, stones, 'nuff said.

As someone who enjoys and employs Britain’s rights to free speech on a regular basis, can you elucidate here? Also, you appear to be considering, then dismissing, the use of force to overthrow these alleged laws against free speech in Britain. Unless you’ve just written that badly, it sounds a trifle insane.

I believe that was actually Adam Smith, and was about capitalism, not democracy, which is about self-representation.

Finally, I think your conclusion, while theoretically rational, is not borne out by realpolitik - and the parlous-yet-extremist-and-violent state of the Palestinians is a microcosm of the flaws in your theory.

Finally finally, you should report your name change to a mod, since resubscribing under a new name often gets a tap with the ban-stick.

You may or may not have stated it already, but should the US get involved in regime change? They have been for pretty much their entire existence and it’s ended up hurting them in a lot of ways.

China and India could end up being the big winners in the global marketplace. Their emphasis is on education. Ours is on…um…acquisition of profit?

Are we to spread democracy throughout the globe?
Personally, I’m not convinced that we have to bring anyone down. What we need to do is accept more of a nonviolent approach. We have to heighten the difference between “us” and “them”. We have to let the people decide for themselves. The end result of this is that it’s out of our control. That could be a big problem.

See, that’s where I’d break from the realists, who see states as the only entities capable of organizing themselves into a threat. Aside from day-to-day civil functions of government, most Muslims see themselves as Muslim before any nationality. They essentially function as a single nation, with ‘leaders’ and a coherent ‘foreign policy,’ and as such I don’t think it’s prudent to think of them as being less of a potential threat than, say, China.

Depends on how long this goes on. One would hope they would break sooner rather than later, but we have to keep this policy consistent until they do.

Britain has made certain kinds of ‘hate speech’ illegal, and arrested Mullahs, even without evidence that they materially helped terrorists in any way. These actions (by the state) are the ‘force’ I’m referring to.

Is there some reason it doesn’t apply to democracy too?

It depends. If it’s in direct retaliation for an attack, like in Afghanistan, then yes. Otherwise no.

It’s a good idea, but we shouldn’t think that that alone is going to stop Islamic terrorism.

Well, there’s a school of thought that believes that if every country is democratic, there will be a thing called “Democratic peace”, in which no democratic country would go to war with another because there’s diplomacy.

I don’t buy it for one second, but someone believes in it.
I don’t know if democracy should be worldwide. With that being said, I do believe that everyone is equal. I also think that if everyone has the same government, we lose a big chunk of progress. We need different ideologies to foster discussion and have differences.

I’m starting to hijack ya. Feel free to beed me with a reed.

That doesn’t really address my commnet. It does illustrate that by “War on Terror” you actually are using the US government misnomer by which you actually mean “War in Islamist Terrorism”.

As long as “this” goes on, it is not going to alter the reality that if the US nukes somewhere, it’s going to turn the recipients and their allies against the US. I’d probably join in too.

As you might imagine, I follow the UK news quite thoroughly, and either this is a misrepresentation of the controversial ‘glorifying terrorism’ laws, or you’re going to have to provide concrete citations of this.

Yes. There are other forms of democracy apart from the US capitalist model, though clearly this is one of the most successful.

Well, yeah. I’d actually broaden it to the “War on Political Islam,” to make it clear that the only way one can avoid it is to keep religion totally out of policy.

An inducement is not the same as aid.

There is less and more democracy, and different policies under democracy (of which economic policy is one), but there aren’t different forms of democracy. Different people vote for different things.

I don’t think they will never go to war with each other (I know the history,) but statistically, I think there is a relationship.

There could very well be a relationship, but I’d like to see it.

In the end, it comes down to money and power, which are synonyms.
Additionally, an “inducement” could be seen as the opposite of “aid”. Isn’t aid supposed to be altrustic and inducement is prodding something towards a goal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_peace_theory

To be specific, the latter includes the former.

In the first place terrorism is a tactic. Thats like decaring a war on cavalry in the old days. There is no place called terror. By calling it a war it allows the president to do things which should be illegal and unacceptable. jailing of suspected terrorists ,no legal defense and no trial for instance. It is a legal term and has great weight. It also exites the people and makes them pliable so they go along with things that should offend them.
In response to the Towers being knocked down and 3000 dying we have bombed the bejesus out of two nations ,killed 60 000 people,men women and children, and have destroyed cities.We have rejected the idea that citizens of other countries are entitled to the most basic human and legal rights.
There is no way to tell if you ever win. So you go to war forever.

See my comments above on renaming it. I’m using “The War on Terror” mostly as a convention; I’d prefer “The War on Political Islam.” The place is the Islamic world, with the caveat that by “Islamic” I mean a political, rather than metaphysical, philosophy. Other than that though, this area is pretty well defined.

I think if you tallied the totals of Islamic-on-Islamic violence, you’d find them to be much higher than that. Just off of the top of my head, I believe the Iran-Iraq war killed over a million. If we can help reduce that, I think we would be justified in our actions.

You win when Islamic political leaders (who today, unfortunately, would be Bin Laden) start to renounce violence.

Point is we are not spreadiing Democracy.We are spreading capitalism. Capitalism is ,and always has been exploitive. Anything for profits works in the US where we have been cultured to accept it with little questioning. Does your war on political islam recognize that Iraq was not a religious administration. That Sadaam and his minions were selfishly robbing the country blind but not establishing a religion at all. Therefore the war in Iraq is completely counterproductive to a war on Muslims .Iraq and Iran fought over oil .We are there for oil. History books will record this as the 2nd oil war. War is a byproduct of this sort of capitalism we now are practicing.
Osama was an enemy of Iraq and wanted Sadaams regime replaced with an Islamic one.
Would the war end if we denounced violence.Actually Osama has long ago become a mere figurehead. The Terrorists have morphed into a many headed organization with local autonomy.
This war is couterproductive in many ways. The destruction of cities and the deaths of men ,women and children is not easily forgiven. Read Bremers 100 points if you want to see why we went there.http://teresaalsara.blogspot.com/2004/07/100-orders.html

You know, I don’t think that’s catchy enough - you need something pithier, snappier, to really get people’s attention. Hey, how about “The Crusades” - that’ll get them talking…

Gonzo:This idea that the Iraq war would help much of anything was never really thought out that well.

A mere figurehead? He might have inspired thousands to want to become suicide bombers, and millions more to protect these people. That’s an important job.

Islam is not anti-market, as Muhammatd was a merchant. Trade is highly encouraged as a respected, honest profession, on the condition that both parties should exchange goods voluntarily and in an Islamically acceptable manner. Naturally, this leaves questions as to the scope of the freedom of trade when it clashes with Islamic ideals.

Depending on who you ask, Islam’s teaching can be very democratic. The grandson of Khumeini firmly rejects wilayat al faqih, and favours a secular democracy.

I doubt that the Algerian population stronly agrees with either the secular regime or the murderous Armed Islamic Group, nor is that population especially radical.

Wait, isn’t that how you aimed for Afghanistan and ended up in Iraq?

Part of the problem we’re dealing with is that some radical idiots want to bring the end. Some Zarqawi-style clerics see that the Muslims have strayed and deserve being wiped out, or that killing Muslims is not a bad thing since true Muslims would go to heaven anyway. Few of those pay attention to opinion polls.

Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Lebanon and Qatar are trying their best to join the WTO. Some are considering ending their boycott of Israeli products just for that goal. They are definitely trying to become part of the global economy.

.

America operates one radio station, sawa and one television station al hurra, both broadcasting to the Arab world in Arabic, and available to any household that gets al Jazeera. Neither has had much of success in gaining an audience.

I thought America was a religiously oriented society, with its president talking about crusades and shit.

One example of the falseness of your hyothesis on Islam’s war with the world is Hamas. They explicitly refuse to export their struggle with Israel to the rest of the world. Unlike the left minded Fatah and Popular Front for the Libertaion of Palestine, both secular, and both with a history of attacking Israeli interests abroad, and of hijacking planes.

True. And I’m happy the BJP is losing elections. Too bad it’s the communists making the biggest gains.

See, this here is your problem. Thinking that you’re in a position to decide what goes and what does not, what should stop and what should not stop. Not that consulting astrologists on major policy issues, or seeking divine assistance in deciding where to invade, is excusable, in America or elsewhere. But the tone and the assumption that American (confused and often double) standards should apply bring to mind two words: American arrogance.

The majority of the Frenchfeel that it’s important to the secular identity of the state. You know how the French are. Besides, it’s restricted to public/official buildings. As a matter of fact, the sheikh of al Azhar (the/a major seat of Sunni scholarship) approved of the ban, reminding Muslims that foreign women in Saudi are required to wear the head scarf.

I think your break from the realists is far wider than you imagined. Care to comment on the Iran-Iraq War, the invasion of Kuwait, the civil war in Lebanon and the civil war in Iraq? So how are all Muslims of the same mind again?

Could you point out Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Thailand on a map?

Phew, glad you could sort that one out for us.

I think you should watch your language for implicit assumptions and generalisations.

George Bush did that.

How about the Muslim world in general? Keep in mind that sometimes it isn’t neccesary to speak out, just letting things go by is enough.

Nobody asserted that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. (The administration might have worded things carefully so that people would get that impression, but it’s not the same thing.)

And it may be in our interests not to let them. (It’s in our interests to bring free markets to places surrounding the Muslim world, but not in it.) Think Dubai port deal. Any time you integrate at-risk countries into the world economy, you are increasing your chances that some of this money ends up in terrorists’ hands. Remember that rich people are actually more likely to become terrorists than poor people.

This is my point exactly. (I’m not sure whether you were agreeing with me or not.) It’s all there, but we have to find ways to get people to actually pay attention.

The ‘crusades’ rhetoric was obviously a gaffe, but in general, the government should be able to say whatever it wants, as long as its actual policy comes from empiricism.

Palestinians ally themselves with the left, because that’s who’s willing to take them, but that doesn’t have anything to do with ideological continuity. In fact, much of this has to do with South America - see my discussion there.

Well yeah, exactly.

From what you say, if this group is considered legitimate among the Muslim population at large, this may actually be a sophisticated PR stunt - or, in military terms, a trap. It might have been what they wanted all along to make it better known exactly what the French stand for.

They all (unapologetically, as far as I can tell) see warfare as a solution to religious differences.

Saudi Arabia isn’t Asia. Do you need to me to point that out on a map for you?

Afghanistan would go under my discussion of MAD, and I already discussed Thailand. What do you think of these other places?

Such as?

Here’s my bit for fighting ignorance.

As for the unstated assumptions and generalisations, your post said or implied

All Muslims, or most, hate the West and are radical
Islam is at war with the West, Hindus, Jews…(you actually did say that)
There are no differences to speak of within Islam and between Muslims
Islam is a single, monolithic entity
All Muslims think in the same manner

By pointing out that Hamas rejects the idea of exporting the war against Israel, I was pointing out mainstream Muslim organisation that is not at war with the world.

By pointing out to radical supposed Islamists that massacred their own people, I was showing you that not all Muslims would appreciate being labelled radical, because that now has negative connotations. Another example would be Abu Mus’ab al Zarqawi, hated in both Jordan and Iraq for massacring innocent civilians.

By mentioning wars between Muslims, I was showing you that Muslims do not share an identical mental map, else they wouldn’t have been at war with each other.

Your assumptions show a bit of prejudice or ignorance. Probably both.

As for aiming for Afghanistan and ending up in Iraq, it was a joke. Not a very original one, but so what.

http://www.ilaam.net/Sept11/AmericanWars.html
We are slaves to the military -industrial complex. Three years ago we were at relative peace.Iraq was an insulated country and no threat to us at all. Our illustrious president gave a speech identifying the axis of evil. He said Afghanistan,Iraq,Iran and N,Korea were enemies. He then attacked Afghanistan, with some justification. He followed up with a war against Iraq who was no threat except to its own population.
Iran is after the bomb. N.Korea is after the bomb.what a surprise. They are arming to protect themselves against us.What kind of hell is in our future.
Radical muslims are to Islam like Neo cons and the radical right is to Christianity.