Final-Lee: 1776 (the Musical) Thread

Cafe Society
1

As part of the Son of SDMB Musicals Thread.
For those who haven’t had a chance to watch it recently or aren’t familiar with it at all,
The Wiki

the Official Site

At the end of the thread I’ll give some YouTube links as well.

Having me write the O.P. for this thread is roughly akin to having Ellen Degeneres moderate a Gay Marriage Debate because I’m not neutral: this is one of my favorite musicals and one of my favorite films. Even though I’m quite aware that Paul Giamatti far more closely resembles the portly Adams (called “His Rotundity” by fellow statesmen even during the time of the First Continental Congress) far more than the diminutive William Daniels, the latter will always be John Adams to me and most other fans of the movie. His characterization of the cocky, defiant, obnoxious and (quite deservedly) disliked arrogant condescending little prick… who was also the head-over-heels-in-love-with-his-wife-romantic to whom we owe our independence and our nation at least as much as we do

[drum roll]

G. Washington

or any other founders and probably a lot more. Even so, Adams’s birthday is not a holiday, he’s not on Mt. Rushmore, he’s not on any currency (other than the “every president” dollar coins), he doesn’t have a monument on the National Mall (or anywhere else that’s on par with those of the “big” presidents and founders), and high school history courses skip him over to concentrate on how

So one reason that I like this play/movie so much is that in many ways it’s the great monument Adams doesn’t have.

So while I have lots of opinions and likes (and even a few dislikes) of the movie, for the OP I’ll be relatively objective. Just the facts, though of course they’re my selected facts and even then the long version of them.

1776 is a one act musical (though most stage productions have an intermission, usually after the “He Plays the Violin” number) written by Sherman Edwards (composer and primary lyricist) and Peter Stone (librettist and co-lyricist) in the late '60s. Edwards was probably one of the few successful songwriters to have majored in U.S. history and or taught it in public schools in metro NYC. (This is speculation as I haven’t actually compiled statistical data on songwriter’s backgrounds, but I can’t imagine that many had history backgrounds). Stone was the son of a history professor (who became a screenwriter, then a director, then a history professor again) and was a lifelong history buff himself. They were brought together by their agents and mutual acquaintances and had never worked together before, thus the musical came into the world like a bastard child- “half improvised and half compromise”. Edwards was irked at the “virgin birth” notion of the Declaration as taught in most schools and loved the music of the colonial era and had long wanted to do something to combine the two, while Stone was highly regarded as a librettist and was also a fan of that period of history, so it was part labor of love for both of them.

Like Fiddler on the Roof, 1776 had trouble getting backers due to the perceived limited interest (a musical history lesson? Might work for Fourth of July parties at the Junior League, but not on Broadway), causing Edwards and Stone to no doubt ask “Is anybody there? Does anybody care? Does anybody see what we see?” Of course somebody ultimately said “Yes Mr. (Stone and Mr. Edwards), I do”, and the was a huge success.

Well, it was a huge success… on stage. It got great reviews (some not so great, but mostly very good). It ran on Broadway for three years, it played in London and had several U.S. tours and mirror productions, played a special performance for the White House [hold onto that] and Hollywood legend Jack Warner (one of the few veterans from the Golden Era studios still working in the early ‘70s) bought the film rights. In 1972, when Warner was 80 and about to retire, he greenlighted the picture and did something probably very few would have done (the advantage perhaps of knowing his career wasn’t going to suffer if it flopped): he brought pretty much the entire Broadway cast of the play to Hollywood even though none of them particularly well known outside of theater circles. (Daniels’ appearance as Hoffman’s father [“One word… plastics”] in The Graduate is the only one I can think of from blockbusters of that general era.)

The film got almost universally terrible reviews (a young Roger Ebert savaged it and so did many others), had only limited release, and flopped at the box office. (I’m sure TV and video sales have put it into the black since, though I don’t know this.)
There were probably several reasons for this, but it didn’t really gain a following until it played on TV in the Bicentennial. (For those too young to remember, the Bicentennial was a very big deal in this country- it began as early as '73-74, climaxed in a HUGE 4th of July 1976, then the nation showered off and went back to ignoring history again.) This being long before home video, it was the first exposure most people had to the play or the movie.

So anyway, today the movie is popular, has strong sales, and there’s a large following on the SDMB and elsewhere. It’s generally very well respected in U.S. movie musicals circles, it’s been revived on Broadway at least once (Brent Spiner [bka Data on STAR TREK: TNG] starred as Adams and judging from the revival cast recording seems to have overacted like hell).

So, a few assorted anecdotes before we begin subjective discussion.

===============
COOL COOL CONSIDERATEGATE

As mentioned, the show played the White House, where Nixon saw it. He took issue with the song COOL COOL CONSIDERATE MEN, and though I doubt he said anything at the time, when the film was about to be released he asked Jack Warner (a long time Republican) to strike the song. This was 1972- long before Watergate hearings et al, but the Nixon Admin was definitely under heavy fire from the left and some rightists- and Nixon felt the number portrayed conservatives not just as unlikeable elitists but as downright un-American as well. Though the number was not only filmed but is actually one of the best in the movie, Warner consented, and the number was stricken from the movie’s initial release and from the TV and even the VHS versions. It didn’t appear again until the laser disc, and then on the DVD a few years ago (where, quite nicely, it was inserted into it’s original place in the musical rather than as a deleted scene- I much prefer when movies do this, incidentally).
Nixon’s family and Warner’s both dispute that this is why the number was pulled, incidentally, stating it was just a studio decision due to time. Peter Stone and Sherman Edwards (both dead now) and some of the actors all state that it most certainly was the reason. Obviously I don’t know, but I tend to lean towards the “at least partially true” category; it certainly wouldn’t be out of character for a man as paranoid as Nixon.

to be continued

2

FRANKLIN THE PROFESSIONAL PRIMA DONNA/PRIMA DONNA PROFESSIONAL

Howard DaSilva, who originated Franklin on Broadway and played him in the movie, was both a total diva (though apparently straight [married with kids anyway]) and a total showman. One story to illustrate each (these are from the DVD commentary):

It’s the scene in where Franklin compares calling an American an Englishman to calling an ox a bull: “he’s grateful for the honor but would rather have restored what’s rightfully his”, the line originally ended there. Franklin got a laugh and Dickinson has egg on his face. The writers decided that because of the importance of this scene to both the narrative and the characterization and the historicity of the piece (Dickinson’s debate with Adams is used to personify the patrician class’s oppositions to independence) Dickinson shouldn’t be made to look a fool, but at the same time they liked the joke (which was an actual Franklinism), so they wrote a comeback line for Dickinson: “When did you notice they were missing, Dr. Franklin?” This is a way of saying “Dickinson’s an elitist ass, but he’s nobody’s fool- he’s even sharp enough to one-up Ben Franklin”.
DaSilva had a primadonna hissy fit over the change and even threatened to walk out of the show. He felt that it undermined his character and ruined one of his favorite lines to have it killed with a comeback. The writers refused to strike it, but finally somebody came up with an alternative: most of the pro-Indie faction laughs when Franklin makes his jape, then the conservatives when Dickinson respond with the “they were missing” line, but… have Franklin laugh the loudest at the retort, showing he’s a good sport and loves a laugh even at his own expense. DaSilva was fine with this and it’s in the movie as well.

DaSilva had other diva (divo?) moments as well, but showed how dedicated he was as an actor. During the final week of dress rehearsals, days before the show was to open, he had a massive heart attack onstage, was rushed to the hospital, almost died, and was told he needed open heart surgery/stints placed and several weeks of convalescence. He refused. Somehow he convinced his doctors and the producers to let him appear in the play for opening night; a private nurse accompanied him backstage that night and he’d wear an oxygen mask whenever his character was offstage, and according to Daniels and the DVD commentators he was looking a bit gray and everybody was about to have their own heart attacks over the knowledge he might fall dead at any minute, but he made it through the show, got a huge ovation at the end, then returned to the hospital for the surgery and his convalescence, returning to the show when he was back to health. (The Original Cast Album was recorded during DaSilva’s recovery and thus features Roy Dotrice as Franklin; Da Silva was healthier than he’d been in years by the time of the movie however.)

=============
Howard Caine, who played the “courteously” abstinent Representative Morris of New York, is probably best remembered as Major Hochstadter on HOGAN’S HEROES, a role he got because of his primary bill-paying job in Hollywood as a dialect coach. Caine was from Tennessee, was a champion banjo player, worked more often as an acting teacher than an actor, and left a New Age widow who claims to constantly commune with him from beyond.

=========================
Descent of Man and Woman

The real Edward Rutledge was a direct ancestor of Goldie Hawn and her Goldie Spawn through her father, Edward Rutledge Hawn. The real Rutledge was, at 24, the youngest man in the Continental Congress, which is referenced in the movie but his age is not mentioned as John Cullum (bk4 the role of Holling Vincouer on NORTHERN EXPOSURE) was a bit old to be convincing as a man in his early 20s.
The real Reverend Jonathan Witherspoon was a direct ancestor of Reese Witherspoon and of her cousin Dane (bk4 his role on the soap SANTA BARBARA).
Franklin (through his daughter, not “the little bastard” son) is an ancestor of Jack Coleman, bk4 playing Hayden Panetierre [sp?]'s dad on HEROES and for playing the sometimes gay son on DYNASY many years back).

==============================================

Since my opinions of how historically accurate the musical is are largely subjective and have much to do with my “opinionation” of it, I’ll save them for after the OP, but I did want to add a few comments of the objective variety about things that did and didn’t happen.

Deliberate Historical Inaccuracies:

While it’s not absolutely impossible that Martha Jefferson came to Philadelphia, the odds are about <0.0000000000000001% of it, and Stone/Edwards knew this. She was not in good health due to a very problematic full-term pregnancy a couple of years before and a subsequent late term miscarriage. She had in fact been advised not to have any more children (by this time she’d borne at least 4 children to Jefferson and her first husband, though only one [her namesake Martha Jefferson] had survived infancy) thus it’s highly unlikely she would have been capable of travel.
It is generally believed that Jefferson went to see her instead. It is certain that he went to see her very soon after the Declaration was drafted, for (ignoring doctor’s advice) she had a [stillborn] baby in May 1778. (She had two daughters after that, dying- as predicted- from childbirth complications with the [obviously] last one.)
The reason for bringing her to Philadelphia in the play is rather obvious: it would be very difficult and expensive production-wise to follow Jefferson to Monticello to see her, besides which this would introduce Jefferson’s complicated Virginia life (Sally Hemings wasn’t in the picture yet but the complicated finances/obsessive building programs/light skinned slaves/poor-relation hangers on/etc. were all issues), thus the Little Mountain is brought to Muhammad. This shows Jefferson’s love and longing for his wife, compares/contrasts it with Adams’ love/longing for his own, shows the romantic nature of the silent “red headed tombstone”, and of course introduces one of the lighter moments and best melodies of the play (in which we learn, among other things, John can dance). Historically it’s inaccurate, but dramatically and even biographically it actually imparts a truth the actual events can’t.

There were of course far more delegates than are represented in the play, and many have been merged/composited/rewritten altogether for various reasons. One major reason is that delegates came and went constantly; those present on July 1 may be only 80% the same as those there on June 1 who may be only 80% the same as those on May 1, etc., as delegates were constantly recalled, replaced, resigning, choosing to enlist, needed at home, etc… It would be impossible for an audience member who hasn’t done substantial reading on the Continental Congress to be able to keep track of that many characters without a scorecard, so save for the big three (Adams, Franklin, Jefferson) and perhaps Hopkins & Hancock, most of the rest are more archetypal (the Common Soldier [Courier], Working Class Man [McNair], Patrician [Dickinson], Slaveowning Patrician [Rutledge], Equivocals [Hall, Morris, Wilson], etc.). In ways this serves the narrative and the understanding of the events better than a far more ‘accurate’ depiction.

Caesar Rodney’s return to break the Delaware deadlock did occur, but was probably not quite as dramatic. He returned in a carriage instead of on horseback and arrived in time for the voting on July 2 after a fairly leisurely pace. His cancer was visible but its adverse affects were more discomfort than life threatening (he lived for several more years), but his true reason for leaving was more likely allergies: he was an asthmatic and could barely breathe in foul, fetid, fuming, foggy, filthy Philadelphia.

Jamie Wilson’s War- this is probably the most prevaricated and baseless scene. It is known that Wilson was something of a toady to his former law professor Dickinson, but there is no record of why he changed his vote from nea to yea and the “I don’t want to be remembered” scenario is almost certainly not it, nor do the writers claim it was. This is just dramatic license to explain the unknown and add some drama. The real Wilson (who was Scottish, incidentally, as were several other delegates [McKean was the son of Scots born parents but was himself American]) was constantly plagued by debts and poverty after signing the Declaration, spending time in debtor’s prisons in three states. He ultimately became a judge on the North Carolina frontier (where he went to escape his creditors) and died in a cabin there of malaria.

John Dickinson was a delegate from Pennsylvania (where he owned a substantial amount of property), but identified far more as a Delawarian (where the bulk of his huge holdings were) and was in fact close friends with some of the Delaware delegates. In life as in the movie/play, he did refuse to sign the Declaration yet join the army, and in fact initially he was a militia private serving under General Caesar Rodney (told you he wasn’t on death’s door, now didn’t I?). His friend Thomas “That man could depress a hyena!” McKean pulled strings to have him promoted to a brigadier general, but mostly he served as a delegate to Congress from, alternately, Delaware and Pennsylvania. Dickinson also believed “in for a penny in for a pound” enough that he extended Independence to all and freed the 37 slaves on his Delaware plantation, a considerable sacrifice even for a man of property.

Salmon Chase, the obese delegate from Maryland in the movie, was later appointed to the Supreme Court by Washington and became an archenemy of Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson famously feared the power of the judiciary and his factions in Congress were responsible for Chase’s 1804 impeachment. He was also one of the U.S.’s first dieting success stories: as a young man (35 in 1776) he was so obese and ruddy other delegates called him “Old Bacon Face”, but through major changes in diet and exercise he lost most of the excess weight by the time of his impeachment, making him the only known public figure in American history to lose weight efficiently without an accompanying book and product line.

Scenes deleted from the original script:

Per Stone on the DVD and in the preface of the book version of the script, there were several scenes written either partially or at least in outline but pulled for time or because they didn’t work. Among them:

-The original play began on July 4, 1826, the last day of Adams & Jefferson’s lives (the great odd coincidence of U.S. history that was apparently less well known in the 1960s) and had their exchange of letters leading to a flashback. It was decided (probably correctly) this didn’t work, but the letter writing conceipt was of course kept for John and Abigail.

-There was a scene that made it to early rehearsals before being pulled in which Jefferson, Franklin, and Chase actually travel to the “drinking and the whoring” in New Brunswick and encounter

[drum roll]

G. Washington

but it was decided it took up too much time and changed the tone of the play, plus they wanted to keep Washington off stage. It was partly for comic relief, for in the scene (as in history) Franklin and Adams and Chase had to share a bed at a crowded tavern.

Edwards wrote a scene from history in which a Native American (not sure of his name or tribe) comes to the Continental Congress to petition for tribal rights and an alliance. A delegate speaks to him in a pidgin English, to which the chief responds with a perfect Oxford accent “I’m terribly sorry… I don’t quite receive your meaning.” It is based on an actual event (the actual chief having lived at one time in England and been educated in both the written and spoken language).

Edwards was very glad to show the convicts carrying Franklin into Congress in his sedan chair in the film, for he’d wanted to in the play but it was too expensive and difficult (door width, etc.).

TOTALLY NON 1776 RELATED: A friend with a flat tire just called me so I must run. I’ve more to add, but I’ll go ahead and submit in case anyone wants to “discuss amongst yourselves”.

Till then, till then, etc., Saltpeter

3

I too am a big fan of the musical.

At 17 years old, I was cast in a community theater production of 1776 as Andrew McNair, the octogenarian congressional custodian. It’s a really fun part. From the first rehearsal, I decided I wanted to play his age as it was written. The director was skeptical initially – she said she’d envisioned a younger McNair when she cast me. But after a few rehearsals, she told me to go ahead and play him old.

One of the greatest compliments I ever got during my now defunct acting career came when I overheard two audience members chatting about me: “That custodian guy is funny, but he’s definitely not that old. I bet he’s not a day over 55.”

One of my favorite moments from the show – I’m not sure whether it’s in the movie. During the song “But Mr. Adams,” when the members of the committee charged with writing the declaration are trying to decide which one of them will actually draft the thing, the other members finally settle on Jefferson. He is reluctant, to say the least, and practically refuses. If I remember correctly, the script calls for this exchange:

Those stage directions are actually written into the script. Not an explanation like “Adams is substantially shorter than Jefferson,” but just a listing of their respective heights as they deliver those lines. And the kicker was that our Adams actually was, like, 5’8", and our Jefferson, when he wore his big period shoes, was pretty close to 6’3". When those guys went chest-to-chest, we got an absolutely show-stopping laugh. Every time.

Last comment: while this is one of my favorite shows, it suffers from an interesting problem. One way to ensure that a play or musical survives into posterity is for it to be commonly produced in high schools, community theaters, and universities. But this show is only rarely produced at these levels (I got lucky). And why not? Because the show requires about 25 men, and only two women. Your typical audition pool for a high school musical is 100 girls and 15 boys. 1776 is a far superior musical to Bye Bye Birdie, Anything Goes, How To Succeed…, and Oklahoma, but because of the gender disparity in amateur theater, it doesn’t get one tenth the play of any of those.

4

I’ll go out and buy up every damn pin in Philadelphia, the kind the ladies use for sewing!

I too love this show, in spite of the inaccuracies Sampiro goes over. They’re no worse than in, say, The Sound Of Music.

One of my favorite scenes is when Adams and Franklin are leaving Jefferson’s rooms, following the arrival of Martha Jefferson. Adams is relieved and says that now Jefferson can get to work on the Declaration. When Franklin expresses doubt that Jefferson will start work right away Adams is shocked. “You don’t mean that they’re going to…in the middle of the afternoon?” “Don’t worry John, the history books will clean it up.”

Mama Look Sharp is such a poignant song about the loss of war.

Sampiro, did you ever watch William Daniels on TV’s St. Elsewhere? There was an episode in which his character, Dr. Mark Craig, and Craig’s wife, visit Philadephia to consult a surgeon who specializes in the surgical repair of hands. Dr. Craig injured his hand slamming it into a wall. The husband and wife are walking along outside and she asks him “Mark, why did we have to come to Philadelphia in the summer? It’s too damned hot!” And Dr. Craig responds by singing the lines “It’s hot as Hell in Philadelphia!”

5

When I was in 8th grade, I had a very nice history teacher. He was a good guy. He coached football, he had a degree in physical education and a minor in Spanish. He was way out of his element teaching history, and so we ended up watching a lot of movies. And that’s how I came to be introduced to 1776. I fell in love with it. I just thought it was brilliant. Thereafter, if I ever saw it on television, I always made sure to watch it. My sister recorded it once, and so we watched the vhs tape over and over. Now I’ve got it saved on my DVR, though I covet the DVD. I also have the original Broadway recording of it, the OST from the film, and the soundtrack of the Broadway revival. My family thinks it’s great fun to tease me because I listen to the CDs in the car and sing very loudly with the music.

We watch the movie every time we feel particularly proud to be Americans. We watched it on election day, and again on inauguration day. I can’t even think of another movie that makes me as utterly and completely happy as 1776. I wish I was alive 30 years ago so I could have seen it on Broadway.

6

Loved that. There was also a character on the show named Josiah Bartlett, which I’m guessing is a 1776 nod. (Daniels’ wife on the show and in real life is Bonnie Bartlett, so I’ve wondered if she’s a descendant.)

The inaccuracies don’t bother me at all. And actually, it’s WORLDS better than The Sound of Music (of which the real Maria von Trapp said “It’s a beautiful story, it just doesn’t happen to be mine” [though it didn’t stop her from suing for a share of the profits]).

As with the movies KINGDOM OF HEAVEN and LION IN WINTER, it’s actually amazing how many historical facts they did include considering it wasn’t a documentary or “deep” movie or miniseries. For example:

— The Declaration committee really did consist of Livingston, Sherman, Jefferson, Franklin, and Adams, and Jefferson really did write more of it than Livingston/Sherman/Franklin/Adams really did [mostly] drop out due to a new son/little education/near inability to write something without a jocular side/knowledge that his writing it would automatically piss off half of Congress.

—The pins/saltpeter exchange, the catalog of faults (“There you have me, you are pigeon toed/pigheaded”), the great “all that’s left is the discontent” dialogue, and most of the lines from my absolute favorite song- YOURS YOURS YOURS, were either taken directly from or mild paraphrasings (for cadence and rhyme) of actual excerpts from John & Abigail’s letters.

—Franklin’s son really was arrested and his reaction really was about what it is in the play.

—Franklin, Chase and Adams really did go to New Brunswick because of the “drinking and the whoring”

—Dickinson really was very much against the Declaration and Independence in general and really did refuse to sign it, and really did enlist in the Continental army anyway (as mentioned above).

—Stephen Hopkins’ rum privileges really were suspended for a time.

—Lyman Hall really was equivocal and really did ultimately decide to vote his conscience rather than his constituency (though he wasn’t the only delegate from Georgia, but this is mentioned in the OP).

—North Carolina really did demur to South Carolina in many votes and New York really did constantly abstain due to the state legislature’s inability to reach consensus and refusal to grant its delegates the rights to vote without instruction.

—Morris’s estates really were plundered and his sons really did enlist, which really did result in his signing the Declaration (a bold move considering that the British occupied his home town). (Pity his half-brother Gouverneur isn’t in a musical- now THERE’S an interesting forgotten founder [one arm, one leg, and four mistresses for most of his life, the reason the Constitution is engraved rather than just a print job, husband of the most notorious woman in Virginia [and Jefferson relative- she was accused of adultery and infanticide before her marriage no less!], and the reason Lafayette’s wife wasn’t beheaded, all among other things.)

—Slavery really was a brick wall that threatened to sink the whole notion of independence, and Adams really did say (repeatedly) that it would ultimately lead to war and that it would still be causing problems in a hundred years (it was ended 89 years later, but none can argue it was still causing problems in 1876).

Roger Ebert and other reviewers complained the musical made Adams, Franklin, Jefferson, etc., into charicatures, which makes me wonder if we saw the same movie. True, it’s not an in-depth character study, but it’s a 90 minute MUSICAL, it’s amazing how much they DO get right by way of characterization.

— John Adams really was a neurotic, needy, “obnoxious and disliked” (direct quote from the actual person) person of limited social skills, yet at the same time very much passionate about independence in spite of what it meant to him (he really could have swung from a gallows- it’s almost a miracle he didn’t), he really was passionately devoted to his wife who was his mainstay and gave him continual long distance written pep talks. This does not portray him as a clown or as a total hero, but as a complicated man with many demons, a soft romantic side, an ultimate ability to compromise when absolutely needed to enable that on which he would not compromise, an amazing clarity of vision (even the “I see fireworks, I see the pageant and pomp and parade”- he really did predict, in 1776, that the day of the Declaration’s approval would become a holiday).

—Jefferson really was frequently depressed due to his absences from Virginia and his wife, really was already renowned for his writing talent and his scientific acumen (the meteorology station in the chamber, the swivel chair used in the movie [was invented by him by this time], etc… Unlike Adams we do not have much (if any) of his correspondence with Martha (he burned her letters, his letters to her, and even her portraits and many of her effects when she died- he’d done the same thing when his mother died- a form of grieving and closure), but it’s known how passionate their relationship was. (It’s also recorded by their daughter and others that his violin playing really was one of her turn-ons.) And of course his complicated and often intense adversarial/collegial relationship with Adams really was born in Philadelphia, and would only become deeper in both the adversarial and collegial natures over the next 30+ years (they basically became friends only after they outlived most everybody else present at the creation).

Franklin is probably the closest to a caricature, but his humor and witticisms really were renowned even in his time. He was also of course a very serious man of business (the equivalent of a self-made multimillionaire today and and perhaps the first American to make his fortune through franchising a brand), a renowned wit, and a general Renaissance man and superstar whose greatest stardom was still to come (France). They did add in his gout, his womanizing (even his illegitimate son), and while he adds a lot of comic relief to the play, it’s not hard to imagine he added comic relief at the Congress. (Franklin’s wife was dead by this time- she’d died just before he returned from England in 1774; he wasn’t a good husband, but why bring it up in the play?)

Anyway, the surprising amount of historical content is actually one of the things I love about the musical. The historical inaccuracies are pretty much all necessary in order to present a “greater truth” without being 5 hours long or boringly detailed, and it irks me that Ebert and other critics didn’t get that.

Incidentally, my favorite song by far is, as mentioned above, YOURS YOURS YOURS (youtube). William Daniels is somebody I’ve never remotely desired to see nekkid or anything like, and of course the late Virginia Vestoff doesn’t much do it for me due to my demographics, yet this is just one of the most hauntingly romantic and even sexy scenes in movie dom for me, and the lines

Do you still smell of vanilla and spring air?
And is my favorite lover’s pill[a] still firm and fair?

are, regardless of their intent and if only to me, beautifully erotic. (Of course, so is “He Plays the Violin”.

My absolute favorite song is Yours Yours Yours. As most of you know

7

THE YOUTUBOGRAPHY (clips from the movie unless otherwise specified)
SIT DOWN JOHN (the long version)
SIT DOWN JOHN from the Broadway Revival(performed at the Tony Awards [after Brent Spiner had left the show- an actor named Michael McCormick plays the part])

PIDDLE TWIDDLE AND RESOLVE/TILL THEN (“piddle twiddle and resolve” and foul fetid filthy Philadelphia" are direct quotes [I think fuming and foggy were added for meter, but they work]).

The Lees of Old Virginia (my least favorite number, incidentally)

But Mr. Adams

Yours Yours Yours

He Plays the Violin (Interesting thing: Blythe Danner plays Martha Jefferson, and her daughter Gwyneth Paltrow played Jefferson’s daughter {Martha, Jr.} in JEFFERSON IN PARIS)

Cool Cool Considerate Men

Momma Look Sharp

The Egg

Molasses to Rum to Slaves (from a regional production but very very well done by an actor with a great voice and a spooky resemblance to a young Rush Limbaugh; the film version doesn’t seem to be on YouTube at the moment)

Commitment Dialogue/Compliments

Is Anybody There? (next to Yours Yours Yours, this is probably the song most taken from actual correspondence and writings)

8

PS (just to deprive a nitpicker of some pleasure): I made a typo and referred to Samuel Chase as Salmon Chase (also a SCOTUS justice, though under Lincoln, as well as one of the “Team of Rivals”) in the OP. Let me here correct it- I meant Samuel, not Salmon.

9

Bravo! Nicely done Sampiro. This was probably the first musical I saw when I was a kid around 1976 and it is one of my favorites. On a couple of occasions I have been able to show the movie to 1776 virgins. I love being able to say ,“Remember Holling from Northern Exposure? Watch this!.” That song is definately a show stopper.

I have not heard the cast album of the revival so I can’t say you are wrong about him on that. However, I did see him on Broadway in the show and I thought he did a great job. It was a huge theater so maybe his take was better suited for the room rather than the recording. I also thought that the recently departed Pat Hingle did a great job as Franklin. Dickenson was played by the English guy who often played opposing counsel on LA Law. Hancock was played by the guy who was Daphne’s boyfriend for a while in Frasier. The entire cast was full of “that guy”. I loved it.

The lines about New Brunswick were particularly funny to me since I grew up a stones throw away. It got the biggest laugh on Broadway too. Probably a lot of New Jersians in the audience.

10

This has always been one of my favorite musicals, don’t care what the critics* say.

Every July 4th we watch the movie before we go out to see the fireworks. I love the songs except that wretched one that Mrs. Jefferson screeches out. And John Cullum practically steals the movie from Daniels with Molasses to Rum. Great movie.

*I confess that I am in love with The Sound of Music also, and it’s in my top 10 favorite musicals.

11

Put me down as another huge fan of 1776 - I own the book version of the script, both the VHS and the DVD versions of the film, the motion picture soundtrack on album and CD, and the Brent Spiner Broadway revival on CD.

I’ve also played Samuel Chase in a local community theatre production - so of course I got to do the “Someone ought to open up the window!” line. (I also have a tape of that show, taken from the light booth camera - really crappy quality. shhh - don’t tell. It’s usually very hard to round up that many men for a show, but we actually had more than enough audition. Our McNair was played by a dwarf (who I’ve acted with on about three different occasions. We have very good chemistry together onstage - I’m an introverted actor, he’s an extrovert. And I’m 6’ - 2"). Very hard show to do from a technical standpoint, because the chambers have to be big enough to get the whole Congress on stage in one sitting - very tricky.

12

I saw the original Broadway production with the original cast. I liked it, but wouldn’t say it was among my favorites. William Daniels impressed me, though.

I do note that this is probably the only Original Cast Broadway album that does not have the original cast – Howard Da Silva doesn’t appear on it.

13

I like 1776, but it really does start to drag in the final third until Rutledge stops the show with “Molasses to Rum”. And not just drag a little - it drags a lot. It was kind of hilarious in the John Adams miniseries when essentially all of the second half of 1776 happens in about a minute and a half.

And I can’t believe you don’t like “The Lees of Old Virginia”, Sampiro.

ETA - a piece of trivia - Gwyneth Paltrow is in this movie, as a fetus.

14

edges into thread, hoping to be unnoticed

I’d never seen it before. I liked it quite a bit, but don’t think it’s going to become something I watch repeatedly.

edges back out

15

I haven’t seen it for a while but I do love this musical though my exposure is only the movie. It is well done and I feel they captured and conveyed the time and the events better than most Hollywood efforts that are suppose to be accurate portrayals of real historic events.

I am actually a big fan of both Adams and Franklin. I think they caught the essence of both perfectly. Adams gets overlooked far too much for how vital he was to the success of the Revolution and the later success of the country. I will admit he was not a great President but he was a great Founding Father. I was extremely overjoyed when HBO made a miniseries of the book I had enjoyed so much.

As to Caesar Rodney, I forgive the writers completely as the story is most commonly told that Rodney rode eighty miles through a thunderstorm on the night of July 1, 1776, dramatically arriving in Philadelphia “in his boots and spurs” on July 2, just as the voting was beginning.
Here is an example: Past Governor Caesar Rodney and they put it on the Delaware Quarter.

Great breakdown of the movie & play Sampiro.

16

I make it a point to watch the movie every Independence Day. DaSilva’s Franklin, although a funny performance, is a little over the top for my taste compared against the rest of the cast.

One thing that doesn’t come out until you see it several times is how good John Cullum is as Rutledge. Molasses to Rum to Slaves isn’t what you’d call catchy and certainly isn’t an audience favorite, but he does it beautifully.

17

Cullum also does a good job of a southern accent without going quite overboard (though he does stand on the edge a bit). Of course he’s from Tennessee, which is why his Quebecois bar owner in Alaska had a southern twang, but it still works. And I love that song (especially the auction).

18

All I want to know is where I can get the movie version of the song Mama Look Sharp (or is it Momma Look Sharp). I’ve got three other recordings, none of which match Stephen Nathan’s lead vocals.

19

Darn you, Sampiro! Now I’m earwormed. I hummed He Plays The Violin all through my lunch.

StG

20

burn the heretic!!!

:smiley: