Finally congress is doing something about illegal immigration

[Fear_Itself]

@DougC

… you would rather have a hospital go bankrupt treating deadbeats and then not be able to treat anyone, rather than offer services appropriate to what different economic levels of patients can pay.

I am in favor of this. Let me be clear; if hospitals can’t treat everybody, regardless of ability to pay, they shouldn’t treat anybody. If that is what it takes to get universal health coverage in this country, I am willing to take that risk, for myself, and you, and your family. Is that clear?

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Palooka

If Wal-Mart depends on cheap illegal labour, how come Wal-Mart can survive in Canada where illegal immigrants from Mexico aren’t very common?

Those damn Greenies…

[Ravenman]

@DougC

Your reasoning doesn’t make a lot of sense: you would rather have a hospital go bankrupt treating deadbeats and then not be able to treat anyone, rather than offer services appropriate to what different economic levels of patients can pay… But any one person’s opinion hardly matters–if the system fails due to non-payment, then medical care to the poor will be economically-restricted there anyway, citizens or otherwise.

I thought you were arguing that people should have to prove that they are in the country legally before getting health care… Now you’re saying that people should prove that they can pay for health care before they receive help? And if you think that the health care system in this country is threatened because it is lacking in revenues, well, I think it is fairly easily established that there is still loads of money to be made in the health care business.

Simple question here: a poor migrant worker gets hit by a bus. Should he receive medical treatment if he can’t pay? If no, what should be done with him?

[Kalhoun]

@ITR champion

Are you under the impression that this proves something. The United States, according to the last census, is 13.5 percent Hispanic, which gives us 37 million Hispanics within the country. The various studies seem to put the number of “illegal” immigrants at about ten to eleven million. That means that a given Hispanic is more than twice as likely to either be a citizen or have entered the country legally as illegally.

My only personal experience with illegal immigration came during my summers in Wyoming. Hotels in the Jackson Hole area would hire a busload of foreign workers on six-month visas to do the dishwashing, maid service and so forth. A couple weeks before their visas expired, the workers would all run off to small towns in remote regions and gets jobs waiting tables or something. And they’d stay there. The INS almost never looks for illegal immigrants in Wyoming or Idaho.

All of these workers were from Russia or the Balkans. But still, the work was being done by Caucasians, so it’s all good, right?

Dude…I said “illegal or otherwise.” That encompasses both legal and illegal. What’s your point?

[DougC]

…I am in favor of this. Let me be clear; if hospitals can’t treat everybody, regardless of ability to pay, they shouldn’t treat anybody. If that is what it takes to get universal health coverage in this country, I am willing to take that risk, for myself, and you, and your family. Is that clear?.. - Fear Itself

• • • Well at least you’re being reasonable. :rolleyes: I have a plan for “universal Ferrari coverage”, because I think everyone should get to drive a nice car. Maybe we can work together on our little castles in the sky?
      ~

[Ravenman]

If you can’t see the difference between “enjoying the ride in a fancy car” and “not bleeding to death on the street,” I’m not sure that anyone will be able to explain it to you.

[Lochdale]

The health care issue though is just another symptom of the problems posed by illegal immigration. Again, this isn’t a finite problem.

And Fear Itself, I’m a little concerned about your willingness to sacrifice all of us at the alter of universal health care. Seems a little Salinist to me.

[Enginerd]

@rjung

Am I the only Doper who’s suspicious enough to wonder if the “grass-roots” anti-illegal-immigrant efforts are being backed by the large corporations/farms/companies who hire illegals? “Stop whining about your 18-hour work days, or I’ll turn you over to those militias and let them run you up with the thumbscrews!”

Yes. The illegal aliens I’ve dealt with (in the construction industry) very seldom whine about 18 hour work days - they’re getting paid by the hour, so the longer they work, the more money they bring home to their families. And their employers have no desire whatsoever to turn them over to a militia; then they have to replace them or lose their (considerable) productivity. Neither side in that equation wants to rock the boat.

[drachillix]

@Ravenman

Good lord. So, are you suggesting that the Department of Homeland Security should put signs along the border telling people not to cross illegally… only this time, those signs should be in Spanish? :smack:

So THAT was the problem! Those signs we have now must be written in Aramaic! No wonder nobody heeds the signs… it’s a dead language!

Well much of the protest in this thread comes from a certain amount of, the “If you’re coming to America, learn english” mindset. Or are you saying that we should somehow enforce our language on Mexico just because we share a border. A sign saying “minefield” in spanish would be equally meaningless to me if I was trying to cross into Mexico.

[Fear_Itself]

@Lochdale

And Fear Itself, I’m a little concerned about your willingness to sacrifice all of us at the alter of universal health care. Seems a little Salinist to me.

Ooh, too bad you didn’t compare me to the Nazis, I could have claimed a Godwin victory. Hmm, what can we call a gratuitous comparison to Stalin… I know! A Lochdalification!

[JRDelirious]

@ITR champion

Are you under the impression that this proves something. The United States, according to the last census, is 13.5 percent Hispanic, which gives us 37 million Hispanics within the country. The various studies seem to put the number of “illegal” immigrants at about ten to eleven million. That means that a given Hispanic is more than twice as likely to either be a citizen or have entered the country legally as illegally.

Thanks, ITR, for part of my cite (census figures). Am working on the crime statistics part.

[Ravenman]

@drachillix

Well much of the protest in this thread comes from a certain amount of, the “If you’re coming to America, learn english” mindset. Or are you saying that we should somehow enforce our language on Mexico just because we share a border. A sign saying “minefield” in spanish would be equally meaningless to me if I was trying to cross into Mexico.

I’m pretty sure you’ve been whooshed. Or I have. I’m just not sure anymore.

In any case, I was not seriously suggesting that we force our neighbors to the South be compelled to learn Aramaic upon penalty of wandering into a minefield. (Although it does seem like an idea that might arise if Mel Gibson and Dick Cheney teamed up to run for the Republican nomination in '08.)

[Lochdale]

@Fear Itself

Ooh, too bad you didn’t compare me to the Nazis, I could have claimed a Godwin victory. Hmm, what can we call a gratuitous comparison to Stalin… I know! A Lochdalification!

Heh, whatever but your willingless to damn all and sundry for the alleged panacea of universal healthcare is a little over the top imho.

Illegal immigrants are hindering an already overburdned system.

[Lochdale]

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/breakingnews/121205az_immigrants

From the Tuscon Citizen. Study states that almost half of the immigrants in Arizona are there illegally.

[iamthewalrus_3]

@Ravenman

Good lord. So, are you suggesting that the Department of Homeland Security should put signs along the border telling people not to cross illegally… only this time, those signs should be in Spanish? :smack:

So THAT was the problem! Those signs we have now must be written in Aramaic! No wonder nobody heeds the signs… it’s a dead language!

I imagine

Picture 1: Smiley person on one side of fence
Picture 2: Smiley person climbs over to other side
Picture 3: Large explosion with skull and crossbones
Picture 4: Horizontal person with X-ed out eyes on ground next to fence

would tend to transcend any possible language barrier as well.

[JRDelirious]

Pausing the new discussion on overburdening of social support systems in border states (a very real concern) to come back with the request for cite re: most crime is by American-on-American.

OK, some raw data here…

(Sourcebook of Criminal and Justice Statistics)

• Some 90,000 noncitizens in prison http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t642.pdf
  … out of over 1 million immates http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t631.pdf

• Peak year of returns-to-home of “deportable” persons (includes run-of-the-mll overstays and illegal immigration that does not involve non-immigration-related criminal activity) eas Year 2,000, 1.8 million, in 2003 it was between 1.3 and 1.4, about 185,000 a year pursuant to an actual judicial order, the rest “voluntary” (as in, “your papers are kinda funky; leave voluntarily and you can try again the right way, if you make us work to kick you out you’re blackballed for 5 years”) http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t446.pdf

• Deportations for “criminal” causes ( the alien that commits a non-immigration crime and is arrested DOES leave a record): this is from 1995 edition, 30,000/yr deported due to crimes other than immigration offences: http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/govpubs/sourcebook/1995/pdf/t445.pdf
  However, truth must be told, all statistics and reports DO point to such problems growing in both absolute and relative numbers, aided greatly by what must be acknowleged is a “ghetto mentality” – when you live on the margins of society anyway by chance or choice, you may not have much respect for its rules. But still, the majority of total arrests for common crimes accoring to the crime stats (FBI, Justice, State Polices, AGs) are, so far, of American citizens . BTW, I mean all sorts of American citizen – I’m not breaking that down by ethnicity of origin or by whether THEIR parents were illegal aliens (some studies earlier in the 20th century claimed that it was the second generation of the immigrants who were a problem, but I’m not going to offer that as a cite that so many years later.)

Also, may I remind the audience that from the mid-90s to present, there has been an overall trend DOWN in crime rate across the nation. The alarming rise in violent crime between the 1960s and early 90s preceded the really big boom in immigrant population. Which is truly scant consolation to specific towns or areas blighted by the growth of marginalized populations with all their attendant negative social impact, but my point is that it’s that social marginality (often self-inflicted, for sure), not the mere status of immigration-papers, what creates the increased risk of crime. **“Tookie” was not an illegal alien, he was American. **

Absorption and succesful integration of the immigrant population IS a serious concern: the Census Bureau gave figures of foreign-born US population as of 2000 as 31.1 million, an unprecedented 57% increase in one decade, a tripling since 1970. Of that, 8.7 million were not here legally, a more-than-doubling. The total number of self-identified Hispanics (a majority Americans), according to the census, was 36 million, also a 58% increase. And though the trend may not sustain at such a spectacular rate in this decade, it will still be an increase in totals. Integration has to go hand in hand with a better control of immigration procedures, including if need be a reformulated system of temporary work permits that makes it more worthwhile for all parties to do things through proper channels.

[magellan01]

@drachillix

What language is the sign in? Can the people its directed at read even in their native language?

I have little problem with increased funding to better control or borders, searching threads under my name will list numerous instances of me supporting measures restricing illegal entry, however, this should not be done by laying lethal traps. Fences and other passive measures fine, live patrolling officers, great. Arrests require human intervention, and not just to pick up the scraps.

I was making a point. I’m all for doing all the things you mention. Buit if they don’t work, release the lions.

On the southern border, Spanish, of course.

[Der_Trihs]

@DougC

• • • I am in favor of health care rationing by economics. Not by race or nationality, or even citizenship status.
• IF it is true that [some particular group] is a high risk for medical non-payment and hospitals are facing operational problems because of that, then it only makes sense to begin cutting off the people who are causing disproportionate amounts of the problem. Why turn away people with insurance, who are “paying customers”? Your reasoning doesn’t make a lot of sense: you would rather have a hospital go bankrupt treating deadbeats and then not be able to treat anyone, rather than offer services appropriate to what different economic levels of patients can pay.
  

So you would prefer the poor to just die ? You sound like a Marxist caricature of the greedy capitalist.

@Enginerd

Yes. The illegal aliens I’ve dealt with (in the construction industry) very seldom whine about 18 hour work days - they’re getting paid by the hour, so the longer they work, the more money they bring home to their families. And their employers have no desire whatsoever to turn them over to a militia; then they have to replace them or lose their (considerable) productivity. Neither side in that equation wants to rock the boat.

You’re not cynical enough. You wait until the work is done, but before the last paycheck is handed out; then hand them over to the militia/mob/INS. At least, that’s what I’d do if I were an Evil Capitalist.

[OtakuLoki]

I agree with the other posters who’ve suggested that a good way to crack down on illegal immigration is to impose actual punative fines to those businesses convicted of knowingly employing illegal immigrants.

I’d also like to see INS become a bit more responsive - I’ve known a couple of people who ended up in the illegal category, because INS couldn’t process their forms in a timely manner. Or couldn’t actually make up it’s mind about what data and forms were actually needed. The situation I’m thinking of a local school had arranged for an English professor to come and teach for a year, and was told to get a six month work visa, then apply to have it extended for the second semester. Well, when it came time to reapply, the visa was denied, leaving them with a legal fight, and having to pay for a house that was rented on the basis of a full year, two or three extra round trips to and from the UK, and a substitute lecturer until they got things straightened out.

I doubt it’s a large segment of the immigration issue, really - but it did underline one reason why risking the currently minor fines for employing an illegal immigrant might make sense to some employers.

I’d also like to say, while there is a real problem with illegal immigration, I wouldn’t dare draw that conclusion from the OP, considering all the factual errors, insupportable assumptions, and gross concept errors it contained.

[Antonius_Block]

@Guinastasia

The only one breaking the law in the OP, as far as I can see, is suzeekay’s son.

Actually, it looks as though one might have to include suzeekay herself (from the OP):

@suzeekay

Thirty years ago I did not feel this way and when I was an IRS agent I overlooked illegal immigrants because I felt sorry for them.

If one assumes that she “overlooked” illegal immigrants in her professional capacity as an IRS agent (otherwise why would she mention her job at the time?), then she was presumably breaking laws that she had sworn to uphold. Perhaps a clarification is in order, suzeekay? And while you’re at it: cites, please, for major problems due to illegal immigrants getting “SDI and Social Security Disability”. There are multiple hoops to be jumped through that make these payments hard to get even for well-qualified US citizens.