Finally congress is doing something about illegal immigration

Great Debates
1

When my grandaughter was in first grade her class was filled with non-English speaking students. When they moved and she went to a new school she was behind because the teacher had had to devote so much time to these children.

Years ago I saw a news report showing a pregnant woman in labor clinging to a pole at the CA/Mexico border while border agents tried to send her back to Mexico. She was determined her baby be born in the U.S. so it would automatically be a citizen. I don’t think this is what our forefathers had in mind in creating naturalized U.S. citizens.

My son who lives in LA says he has to leave because it’s overrun by illegal hispanics who clog up the hospitals and schools and public services, and are the source of violent crime. He’s tried of feeling like the hated minority (he doesn’t just feel that way, 50% of the population of CA is minorities).

I grew up in a small farming town in California. It was safe and quiet. Then all the illegal immigrants that came there to pick fruit were made legal if they had been living in CA illegally for five years and could prove it. Now my former hometown is largely Hispanic; there are murders on the once quiet streets by hispanic gang members. You can’t go to the stip mall after dark; Spanish is spoken everwhere and you are a racist if you object to someone demanding services but they can’t speak English. Employers have to hire people who speak Spanish to deal with their customers.

America, in the past absorbed many minorities. The Irish, etc. faced discrimination when they emmigrated, but they eventually came to be part of what we call America. Now the people coming in want America to accomodate itself to them. They want to turn our country into a mini-version of their country, which by the way is the place they left because it didn’t offer what America does. AND there is a reason for being able to offer what we do; our system worked.

We’ve waited too long to address this problem and now Congress, as usual, is overreacting and creating very harsh measures to try to prevent our economy being dragged down by people who use all our services, get SDI and Social Security Disability, but pay little or no tax to support those services. And who have contributed to the importation of illegal drugs. And now that the problem has reached such drastic proportions and the mayors of border towns have declared an emergency, constituents are demanding they do something drastic, so the measures will probably pass. The Republicans are divided but Bush is against it because he knows that he was probably elected in large part by Hispanics.

I’ve travelled across the U.S. many times by car, the last time a year ago. Illegal and the legal descendents of Mexican immigrants are everywhere; in every town along Rt. 80 and Rt. 70, which I drove last year.

We have transisted to a service economy and these illegals support a lot of that. My son ran a Chinese restaurant years ago and had the INS sweep down and take most of his kitchen staff and leave him in the lurch. However, most called back with new forged papers the next week and wanted their jobs back. He said the most striking thing is that most of them hated Americans and sent their money home. They come here illegally and want to be treated with “respect” and have access to all the things I pay for (and they don’t), and have nice schools for their children on my dollar. They hate me. That’s rich.

So, it will be a problem getting a nanny or a pool man or a landscaper or a waiter; but, I say go for it. Americans will rise to the occasion in the long run. I’m not willing to sacrifice my country and my way of life because Mexico can’t serve it’s citizens and they have to sneak across the border to my country and ruin it.

Thirty years ago I did not feel this way and when I was an IRS agent I overlooked illegal immigrants because I felt sorry for them. Fifteen million illegals later I have changed my mind.

Proposed legislation: how do you feel?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/10/AR2005121001109.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/10/AR2005121001109.html

2

This is going straight out of this forum before it turns into a Pit thread.

Moved from IMHO to GD.

3

Please tell me that you have two sons. Having one person complain about illegal immigration in LA while running a business that employed a large number of illegal immigrants – and then has the audacity to criticize the INS for “leaving him in the lurch” – is just too rich.

Personally, I think the best thing that can be done to combat illegal immigration is to crack down on businesses who employ illegal workers. If it were up to me, your son who ran the Chinese restaurant should have made a trip to jail along with the illegal workers.

4

Damn you. :stuck_out_tongue:

5

Opposed, of course.

Just about any problem supposedly created by “illegal” immigration could be eliminated by establishing means for immigrants to work legally in this country, just as my ancestors and your ancestors did. That’s what Bush is trying to do. More power to him (on this particular issue, that is). Regardless, powerful corporations like WalMart, Tyco and Halliburton have business models that depend on illegal immigration, and they’re unlikely to quietly give up on their labor source.

6

I don’t see that any of this matters. There isn’t enough money in the budget to keep the flow from increasing. It’s a non-starter. Congress can complain all it wants but unless they’re willing to raise taxes to provide the funds for adequate enforcement/infrastructure there’s nothing to be done.

7

Suezeekay, you obviously feel quite strongly about this issue. My question: Would you support the installation of landmines along the border, since security fences have proven inadequate?

8

ITR Champion:

Can you prove this? I imagine if these corporations were knowingly hiring illegals, they’d have been convicted of something by now. Don’t they attach a Social Security number to every paycheck?

Are you perhaps confusing “cheap foreign labor (performed in foreign countries, no immigration laws touched)” with “illegal immigrant labor”?

9

Obviously it is a complex issue. There are, however, limits to everything and immigration is one of them. It’s not just the economic issues that arise when you have a virtually unlimited labour pool but it’s also the profound cultural affects of implanting a large number of people of a different culture onto another culture.

American business (read Republicans) have grown dependent on near slave-labour wages. This has been entirely facilitated by the Mexican government who are doing everything the can to shunt their pesantry north. This is having a deflationary affect on American wages and is disproportionately hurting black Americans.

http://econpapers.repec.org/RAS/pbo44.htm

Moreover, the sheer vastness and suddeness of this vast movement of people is like nothing we have seen in well over a 100 years. America is a country of immigrants but it’s also a country of immigration peaks and valleys. A certain number of immigrants enter the country but then their numbers are capped for several generations which leads to generational assimilation. That just isn’t happening at the moment.

To be sure, we need some immigrants but only a finite amount. Mexico is suffering from a brain-drain and an overreliance on the immigration saftely valve which retards reform and development in Mexico itself.

There needs to be a massive decrease in legal immigration and enforcement of current immigration laws. Increased invesment in countries like Mexico and a greater dialouge about immigration and America’s future.

10

Seconded. The majority of illegal aliens come to the US on a visa and overstay it, not by crossing the border illegally. Until the myriad companies (agricultural, meat packers, construction, service industry) that depend on the cheaper labor illegal immigrants provide (and we as consumers enjoy to some degree with lower prices), illegal immigration will continue to exist. Until US companies stop running buses back and forth from Mexico to the US specifically to bring cheap illegal labor to their farms and factories, illegal immigration will continue to exist.

11

You assume that there are fences along the border. Most of the border is not fenced.

Cite.

12

Before I comment on anything else, I gotta ask: is this actually all that common? Everytime illegal immigration is brought up, people shoot back that it’s our fault because we’re hiring them all as gardeners, cooks, maids, etc. And while I’m sure I’ve indirectly benefited from illegal immigrants (picking the fruit I eat, etc.), I have never personally, as far as I know, among all the people I’ve known and all the places I’ve lived, known anyone who has illegal immigrants cleaning their house, watching their kids, or doing any other domestic duties. Granted, I don’t live in Texas or California, but I did work in Arizona for a summer, and even there I didn’t see or hear about it much. And besides, as the OP says, immigrants are all across the country. So what’s the straight dope on this? Just how common is it?

13

I would, if they were installed in between two fences. I’d also be in favor putting lions in there or creatig a moat and filling it with alligators and piranhas—whatever it takes to keep people who are trying to sneak in—out. The fact is we have a border. We also have the right—and obligation to control it. If a nice poilte sign doesn’t work, then you build a fence. If that doesn’t work you increase the defense until it does.

On the other hand, I do think the the most effective thing that can be done and we shold do is to go after those who hire illegals. And not just with a slap on the wrist, but with major finincial sanctions and/or jail time.

The way both reps and dems have let this issue go unaddressed for so long is disgusting.

Excellent post, Suezeekay.

14

You believe then that the punishment for illegally entering the US should be death?

15

The real reason that illegal immigrants continue to cross the borders into the United States isn’t because we can’t stop them, it’s because we don’t want to stop them. Our economy would suffer if that major source of cheap labor were cut off. The problem will get worse, and the need will be greater in the future, and not just in the area of migrant farm work. When companies like Wal-Mart and MacDonald’s find it increasingly difficult to staff their stores with minimum wage employees - that indicates a looming economic problem, IMO. It’s not just a problem for big business; it’s a problem for everyone. It’s tempting to vilify those who employ illegal immigrants (and many of their conditions of employment truly are horrendous), but the blood doesn’t belong entirely on their hands. The official line from the government may be that they are trying to put a lid on illegal immigration, but in reality, they are not going to try very hard – and they shouldn’t, lest we all suffer. The more negative our population growth becomes, the more we will depend on immigrant labor. European socialized nations will feel the pinch from negative population growth even more than the United States and they have their own crosses to bear (e.g. Muslims in France). We may not like illegal immigration, but I believe we would like it a lot less if it stopped.

(I’m not an economist by any stretch of the imagination - I don’t even balance my checkbook - this is simply one lay cat’s opinion) :wink:

16

Revenant Threshhold:

It wouldn’t be a punishment, it would be a deterrent. Don’t twist people’s statements.

17

When I was a kid, my family moved and I had to change schools. My new school decreed that I was behind, and every single person in my old school spoke English. Different schools have different cirriculum and teach at different paces.

Considering millions of people live in the LA region legally, I don’t think you can completely blame overcrowding and overburdened sevices on immigrants. Secondly, the last time I checked, we had a lot of crime before immigration became the hot-button issue. (We used to blame it on the blacks.)

I’ve lived in several cities with large Hispanic populations, including South Texas and I never felt like a “hated minority.” Some might call this “projecting.”

Nostalgia is a great thing, isn’t it? My community is the same way: folks speak wistfully of the time when we could leave our doors unlocked and murders were unheard of. Well, we don’t have any immigrants around here to on which blame the “sudden” rise in crime, but you get my drift.

Funny thing is, I work in our local historical society, and I’m able to attest that yes, there was just as much crime in the “good old days”-- the media just wasn’t saturated with it. People were robbed, raped, beaten, and anyone who left their door unlocked was an idiot, 'cause there were plenty of complaints of theivery.

What is most amusing is reading opinion pieces from the 1860s and hearing people complain about how their community has gone to hell in the last few years.

All because of immigrants? You don’t say!

Ah, Jesus, that’s horrible!

Employers should, if possible, try to find employees who are bilingual. I don’t see why this is a problem.

Ever been to Little Italy? Chinatown? There are ethnic communities all over the country where immigrants celebrate their culture in architecture, food and community. Sometimes, the original immigrants never fully assimilated-- some never learned to speak English fluently, but their children did.

In my hometown, there’s GermanTown where the Germans who immigrated here in the 1800s built German-style homes, German resturants and, God help us, even produced their own German-language newspapers.

I’ve never played Count The Mexicans before. How does it work? Do you ask them if they’re Mexican, or do you just guess based on skin color? Do you ask them about their immigration status, or just watch for shifty-looking eyes?

This is fucking hilarious.

Hm, I see . . . because second-hand accounts of the statements a few illegal workers employed by your son, you now know the opinion of every immigrant. Amazing how that works!

And what scumbags for wanting to support their families left at home! Gad! They should have brought them with them if they wanted fed!

Oh, wait . . .

I see what you’re saying. Why would expect to be treated with respect when they’re just a bunch of lousy immigrants? Jeeze. The gall of some people. And to want to go to good schools with the white children. . . .

As for hating you, well, you know, sometimes people can sense scorn and xenophobia.

18

As has been pointed out it would be a deterrent, not a punishment. If death ensued, it would be self-inflicted. If you climb a fence that says “Stay out - Private Property. landmines beyond this point” and then—surprise of suprises—step on a landmine, my only concerns are I hope you had a quick death and that the landmine is replaced even quicker.

19

The benefits that immigrants, particularly low-wage immigrants, bring to the economy are mixed at best. The ancillary costs associated with immigrants such as health care, education, infrastructure seem to offset whatever economic benefits the country receives. Further, as wages further deflate due to ever-increasing number of immigrants their contribution to the tax base will continue to fall.

20

I don’t understand why every debate about illegal immigration has to revolve around convinience (i.e. whether it is convinient / economically feasible / necessary to have them around).

Illegal immigration should be stopped for one reason, and one reason only - it’s illegal. If there is a job market for 1,000,000 illiterate Mexican workers to pick fruit, then fine, let’s create 1,000,000 temporary visas so they can cross the border every year. If the economy works better with Mexicans willing to work for $1/hr, then fine, let’s drop minimum wage and let them in.

But if you come to this country illegally, you should not only be on the next truck/boat/plane back to your home country (be it Mexico, Canada, China, or Great Britain), but you should forfeit, for life, any chance of making it into the country legally.

P.S. Before all the inevitable “racist” accusations come out, it should be noted that I am not white and that my parents are (legal) immigrants.