Finding water with coat hangers

[SiXSwordS]

I don’t mean this to be a hijack, but I’m wondering if there is any way someone could make a video, say for youtube, that could provide prima facie evidence of a skill in this regard. Obviously, using even primitive video technology, it would be easy to to make a video that made it look like someone was dowsing; and I’m not looking for a way that someone could prove that they had such a skill.

But, is there some way to make a short video that would make it worthwhile to investigate a claim further?

[Lanzy]

@atoyot92

OK Just so we are clear I never said that I can go out in the desert and find water 4 miles down that will give 800 gallons an hour. I am simply stating that I can find water lines in the ground. For example I can go into somones yard and find where thier septic system is just by using those rods. I can measure out the drain field and show them where thier tanks are. I dont know if the other is possible or not I just know what I was taught and that I can do it. I do not know what the scientific reason for it is, I just know what I can do.

How have you “tested” yourself so far to prove to yourself that you can really do this? Is your proof that you have found water lines and sewer pipes to and from houses? I have been able to do this very succesfully just by understanding where they usually are and looking at the area in question with NO dowsing rods of any kind. It’s called experience not ability.

[control-z]

FWIW, I’ve done it too. I found my dad’s water line even though I had no idea where it was. The rods turning when I walked over the line was both startling and reproducable.

[gurujulp]

@Canadjun

If you can’t imagine how it would be measurable, then how do you know the effect exists? It doesn’t take much imagination to measure the movement of the sticks or pieces of metal. It doesn’t take much imagination to independently verify the location of the water so it can be correlated with the movement of the sticks or pieces of metal.

PS No, I do not believe in dousing.

I just mean I cannot imagine how you would measure the movement of something in my hand and not be able to tell if it was an ideomobile action or not. It doesn’t work with gloves, so it probably is, actually.

I don’t believe or disbelieve in dousing- like I said, I never tried to see if I was in actuality detecting something. I just liked the way it felt when the wood would turn in my hand. I could feel the bark moving against my skin.

If that is (and I am the first to admit that it probably is- same vis a vis ouija boards) the ideomotor principal- then I just think it is really cool to try and feel.

[Princhester]

@atoyot92

OK Just so we are clear I never said that I can go out in the desert and find water 4 miles down that will give 800 gallons an hour. I am simply stating that I can find water lines in the ground. For example I can go into somones yard and find where thier septic system is just by using those rods. I can measure out the drain field and show them where thier tanks are. I dont know if the other is possible or not I just know what I was taught and that I can do it. I do not know what the scientific reason for it is, I just know what I can do.

Interestingly, one of the bugbears of Randi’s challenge has been that some say that his tests of dowsers are not apt. It is said that while many dowsers practice dowsing in a natural setting, looking for groundwater, Randi’s tests are of practical necessity typically of an ability to find artificial things (like pipes) because he can set up a precise test more easily that way. So the argument is that he doesn’t actually test what dowsers say they can do which (it is said) is unfair.

I don’t really accept that this is a problem for various reasons, but happily this is not an issue for you anyway. Your ability is perfect for testing. I’d say Randi will be able to test you on precisely what it is that you say you can do. You will be a very rich and famous man shortly.

[Princhester]

@control-z

FWIW, I’ve done it too. I found my dad’s water line even though I had no idea where it was. The rods turning when I walked over the line was both startling and reproducable.

Did you dig it up?

[Baldwin]

@control-z

FWIW, I’ve done it too. I found my dad’s water line even though I had no idea where it was. The rods turning when I walked over the line was both startling and reproducable.

FWIW? That would be, as noted, one million dollars.

[Musicat]

@Princhester

Interestingly, one of the bugbears of Randi’s challenge has been that some say that his tests of dowsers are not apt. It is said that while many dowsers practice dowsing in a natural setting, looking for groundwater, Randi’s tests are of practical necessity typically of an ability to find artificial things (like pipes) because he can set up a precise test more easily that way. So the argument is that he doesn’t actually test what dowsers say they can do which (it is said) is unfair.

If all participants sign statements agreeing that the test is fair beforehand, and all applicants are able to perform 100% when not blinded, what’s not fair?

I can take a forked stick, and held in such a way as to be slightly unstable, make it turn down or up at will without an obvious hand movement. Anywhere. I will never fail to find water because: 1. You have to dig to prove I’m wrong, and if you don’t find it, you didn’t dig deep enough, 2. Very few places on earth don’t have water, and 3. I’ll make sure my rod points down where the obvious signs suggest water close to the surface anyway.

But I’m very sure I couldn’t pass the Million Dollar Challenge.

[control-z]

@Princhester

Did you dig it up?

No, he knew where the water line was because he put it in, but I had no idea. So he showed me how to hold the rods, IIRC they were a couple hand-sized pieces of small-diameter pipe about 5" long, with two L-shaped metal rods inside the pipes, so the rods could rotate. He had me hold the pipes out in front of me so the rods were roughly parallel, and sent me walking the property. About 15 feet later when I walked over the area where the water line was buried, it felt like there was an almost magnetic pulling on the rods, and they turned and crisscrossed.

[Musicat]

@control-z

No, he knew where the water line was because he put it in, but I had no idea. So he showed me how to hold the rods, IIRC they were a couple hand-sized pieces of small-diameter pipe about 5" long, with two L-shaped metal rods inside the pipes, so the rods could rotate. He had me hold the pipes out in front of me so the rods were roughly parallel, and sent me walking the property. About 15 feet later when I walked over the area where the water line was buried, it felt like there was an almost magnetic pulling on the rods, and they turned and crisscrossed.

You can counteract that mythical pull by tilting the mechanism ever-so-slightly, and they will swivel in the opposite direction.

You’re working with a device that has very little stability and reacts to the slightest angle change, even one that you aren’t fully aware of. The slightest tilt will be magnified[sup]*[/sup]; the unconscious becomes visible. The mistake is to ascribe that motion, produced by your hands, as something significant.

All you are doing is measuring the micro-movement of your hands.

[sup]*[/sup]The magnification phenomena is exactly the same as an analog ammeter – a slight change in current thru the coil is amplified by the long pointer over a calibrated scale. The small becomes large.

[control-z]

Maybe so, but are the rods reacting to the water, am I reacting to the water, or is it something else entirely? It’s something really neat to try either way.

[Lanzy]

@control-z

Maybe so, but are the rods reacting to the water, am I reacting to the water, or is it something else entirely? It’s something really neat to try either way.

Personally, I don’t believe anything at all is reacting to the water. It is something else as has been pointed out previously. I built me some, walked around and the rods did indeed cross, as far as I could tell it was completely random and after a very short while I could “make” it happen with tiny tiny movements.

[control-z]

At least you’ve tried it, I’m thinking others in this thread have not.

[SiXSwordS]

I’m not sure exactly what to try.

I’ve had posters on this board describe to me how to “make” plasma in a microwave. I can do that.

What am I supposed to try? Take two coat hangers and straighten them out, then bend them into ‘L’ shapes and hold the shorter end in my hand with the other ends out in front of me roughly parallel.

Now what?

[control-z]

Here’s a video, although I didn’t take all the pains to hold the rods so carefully: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W95J85E7DNU

I never did think to try a garden hose or bucket of water.

Whether it’s your subconscious doing it or not, it’s a neat effect when it works.

[Musicat]

@SiXSwordS

What am I supposed to try? Take two coat hangers and straighten them out, then bend them into ‘L’ shapes and hold the shorter end in my hand with the other ends out in front of me roughly parallel.

Now what?

To reduce friction, the shorter, vertical ends of a rod are usually put inside tubes (one end in one tube). Holding the device with the long end aproximately horizontal, the L-shaped part should swing freely. Now try tilting the vertical tube ever so slightly. If friction is minimal, as you tilt from slightly left-leaning to slightly right-leaning, the long part of the rod should swing around from left to right. It’s magnifying your tilting action. In fact, it’s hard to keep the tube vertical, where all swinging would be neutral.

Also, if you walk with the contraption, inertia will assert an effect, too. The rod resists motion as Newton said it would, and may appear to swing when what it’s really doing is staying where it was as much as possible and your hand is moving around it. The combination of these motions can make you think it is responding to some mysterious other stimuli. It’s not.

@control-z

Maybe so, but are the rods reacting to the water, am I reacting to the water, or is it something else entirely? It’s something really neat to try either way.

They are not reacting to water. (If you can prove that they do, the $1Mil MDC is waiting for the plucking.) Most likely, since you know or expect water to be somewhere, your hands are allowing them to move in the confimatory direction. To quote Ray Hyman,

Ideomotor action: …The dowsing rod, the exploring pendulum, or related technique[s] depend on an almost undetectable motor movement, amplified into a more noticeable event. The impetus arises from one’s own subtle and unperceived expectations. Elaborate, grandiose theories are then devised to explain the observed effects.

Source

[control-z]

Musicat, you’ve researched, but have you actually tried it?

[SiXSwordS]

OK, I’m not going to buy the hemp covered divining rods for $14.95, but the claim seems to be that the handle should be 4" and the length should be 14". (I’m assuming an overall length of 18".) The rest seems to be for looks and comfort.

I will also follow all of the safety rules.

*

  Make sure your dowsing area is clear of other people. Do not use the rods in a crowded place or in close proximity to other people because someone could get poked and injure an eye. (It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye). Besides, the rods are likely to pick up energy fields from other people and they won't work.
*

  It is tempting to stare at the rods while you are working. Please be mindful of where you are walking though so you do not trip on something or fall in a well.
*

  Keep your divining rods away from young children and always supervise older children.
*

  Do not use divining rods in the rain or during thunderstorms. They may attract a lot more energy than you want to experience (like a lightning bolt).

[control-z]

Heh, yeah that advice is a little too “groovy” for me. All I can say is the dowsers that dig wells and pump septic tanks aren’t hippies.

[SiXSwordS]

@Musicat

To reduce friction, the shorter, vertical ends of a rod are usually put inside tubes (one end in one tube). Holding the device with the long end aproximately horizontal, the L-shaped part should swing freely. …

The video didn’t show any tubes, but I will make sure the ends can move freely back and forth.

One aspect of the video that confused me was the demonstration using only one rod. It moved the same direction and, supposedly, showed the “direction” of flow. (I may have misunderstood this aspect.) That would seem to indicate that, when using two rods, instead of crossing, they should both move the same way.