Thanks for all the info folks. I probbaly should have made the intent of my question a little more clear up front - sorry about that.
OK, so continuing the info gathering …
Let’s talk sporting and Olympic rilfes for a moment. I understand that among the perhaps dozens, hundreds, etc of firearms that use this particular caliber round, one subset is the high-end (read EXPENSIVE) rilfes used for sporting events such as the biathlon, competition target shooting, etc. Does anyone have specific info about this type of firearm?
Once again, I’m not trying to figure out what rifle IS BEING used in the Middle Atlantic shootings - as mentioned by several, that’s the job of the ballistics experts and law enforcement. What I’m trying to do is put together an accurate picture of the array of firearms that can use this particular size round. I’m doing this to assist in telling the story and make it clear to our viewers and our reporters that its NOT just the “assault rifle” that can take this round - because admittedly, in the first hours following these events, we were guilty of doing the same thing everyone else on TV was doing - regurgitating ATF figures without further research to add perspective.
I’m not a reporter, I’m a broadcast engineer - but in cases of technology, science, etc, I frequently get tapped by the newsroom for information - probably because I’m fairly successful at translating “geek-speak” into “newsroom-speak.”
As others have said, there are many, many rifles (and some pistols) that use the .223 Remington round (AKA 5.56mm NATO). The Shooter’s Bible has been linked before. I have a copy in one of the many boxes I have in storage (i.e., it’s not accessible). IIRC the firearms are not listed by caliber. Indeed, most of the firearms in it are available in a variety of calibers. Again, IIRC, they are categorized as “bolt action”, “single shot”, “semi-automatic”, “revolvers”, “semi-automatic pistols”, “lever-action”, etc., etc., etc. In addition, it is not an exhaustive list of available firearms. I think it only lists current production models, not all of which are available in all areas. There are hundreds of firearm models out there that are out of production but are currently available.
So The Shooter’s Bible is not what you’re looking for (i.e., a list of firearms categorized by calibre), but it’s a pretty good overview that can provide you a long list of .223 firearms. You just have to have someone go throuh it page by page and find the firearms that use that round.
Biathalon and the shooting sports, although widely popular in the rest of the world, receive very little coverage in the U.S. U.S. broadcasters seem to be more concerned with “human interest” stories than by actually showing the events. (A particular point of annoyance for me is the time-shifting, since I live on the Left Coast and everything is time-shifted for the east coast.) I don’t know much about Olympic shooting, but this is what I think I know about Biathalon rifles:
They are bolt-action. This is because bolt-action rifles tend to be more accurate than semi-automatic ones.
They are .22 Long Rifle calibre. .22LR has very little recoil, which means the second and susequent rounds can be fired more rapidly. .22LR is a very small round that’s about an inch long. Instead of a seperate primer that is fitted into the case, it uses “rimfire” ignition. That is, the priming compound is inside the rim of the case. It is fired by the striker hitting the rim instead of a firing pin striking a central primer.
They use a five-round detachable box magazine.
They are very accurate and very expensive.
They are not suitable for killing anything bigger than small game because of the low power of the round. (Besides, they’re much too expensive and sensitive for field use.)
For your needs I would suggest picking up The Shooter’s Bible and just going through it to find the information you need. It’s not an exhaustive list and it’s not in the format you desire, but with a little “bookwork” you can come up with an impressive list.
Johnny I also do not have my SB in front of me, but I seem to remember that in the back there are tables that list all the rifles in the book by caliber. You are quite correct to emphasize that it is a catalog of only the ‘current’ guns available, and is incomplete even at that. I should have made that more clear when I linked to it.
To add to the answer to TvGuy’s question there are other types of specialized rifles used for bench rest competition. Ususally these use special “wild cat” type cartridges, but there are probably some out there in .223. These guns are built only for accuracy, usually they are single shot bolt actions, and they are quite heavy. I dount this is what is being used in VA.
Most of the other rifle shooting sports (other than Biathallon), like silhouettes, just use accurate versions of standard hunting rifles, and most use larger calibers like 7mm.
On the spent casing, anyone else wondering if the guy isn’t ‘salting’ the crime scene with casings from another gun? Maybe a gun he sold some time ago? Then, if he gets caught, he claims that he isn’t the guy because the casings don’t match the gun he has in his possession?
TvGuy I’d just like to echo the thanks for taking the time to do the research to present a balanced report instead of just grabbing a stock photo of an AK-47.
Well, you know that we’re not ALL bad in this biz. (In other words, we’re not ALL like Bill O’Reilly )
Seriously, though, my colleauges in the newsrooms of America are trying to do a good job of being balanced - I know they are, because I work with some very talented and committed people.
But, we sometimes fall victim to all that we try to fight against - it’s sometimes WAY too easy, working against deadline, to pull together the first thing you can come across on the AP wire or the 'net.
I just picked up the Shooter’s Bible at Powell’s Books - you’re right, VERY comprehensive book. Too bad there isn’t an online equivilant.
Oi… those shooting by the way are really creepy… I am from Spotsylvania - my mother lives there too… It just hit so close to home and I didn’t expect it, hardly anyone had heard of Spotsy…
One thing I’d be looking at very carefully on those casings - signs that the bullets are hand-loaded by someone who really knows what he’s doing. There should be tool marks. Factory loads are not nearly as accurate as a good hand-load. If these things have turned necks and other signs of accurizing, that would suggest someone who is either a match shooter or has military sniper training.
I’m not a hand loader, so I don’t know if a cartridge will be able to be analyzed to show if it’s been prepped that way. Does anyone else know?
Also, it seems a bit strange to me that someone is using a .223 for long range sniping. It seems to me that the bullet is really a bit too light for that. Why wouldn’t this guy be using something like a Remington 700 in .308? That would be a far superior sniper weapon. It would also be a lot harder to trace the bullets, since there are probably more .308 rifles in the U.S. than any other caliber.
I would think that the weapon in use is NOT an assault rifle. The reason is that they are just too damned conspicuous, and hard to hide. A Remington 700 can be slid in a standard hunting case in a second. A Ruger Mini-14 is a lot easier to conceal than an AR-15.
Sam I would think that things like de-burred flash holes and trimmed necks would show up easily. There would probably be case lube residue also. But I don’t think this guy would have to be using handloads.
Some of the premium ammo on the market these days is very very accurate. I regularly get close to one MOA accuracy out of my factory spec .30-06 Browning A-bolt with commercial ammo using hunting bullets. The rifle is capable of shooting far better than I am, and I am confident that a really good shot would be able to get sub OMOA out of it. Throw in a better trigger and a better scope (I use a 3-9 Leuopold) and you could easily be making 400 yard chest shots off a rest, and the .30-06 is not exactly the accuracy champion of the world.
The .308 is pretty loud, not that a .223 is quiet, but in an urban setting the difference could be important. Have there been reports of the range? A .223 ought to be good to at least 300 yards, and where can you get 300 yard shots in a city?
I would be cautious about putting too much stock in the casings. It just seems to me to be too sloppy. This person has clearly put some thought into what they are doing, it doesn’t seem reasonable that they would leave the brass to be found. Maybe he is using a .22-250 and then just drops a .223 case on the ground.
Darn, we should start a SDMB Black Rifle Club, with all of the shooters we have here
I am wondering what grain rounds they are using. Are we talking good ole’ fashioned 55gr? Or do we have some exotic 77gr BTHP in play?
My personal theory is that we have 2 shooters, and some sort of sick competition going on. I am leaning towards some flavor of 20" AR. The bullets are fragments really well, so velocities are up there, leading me to eliminate the 16" models. (Granted, what are the ranges involved?)
If they are shooting from inside a white box-van, as is suspected, catching brass wouldn’t be an issue. (They could have brass catchers on.) But who knows?
Can anyone tell me with authority where the casing being discussed came from? Are there any informed opinions as to the likelihood that it actually came from the attack weapon?
I agree that he doesn’t HAVE to be a handloader, and that there is plenty of ammunition that is accurate enough for these kinds of shots.
Still, from a ‘profiling’ standpoint, that would be a very interesting thing to know. If it were a self-styled paramilitary ‘nut’ or militia type, or if it’s the work of trained terrorists, you would kind of expect that kind of work. On the other hand, if it’s just your average hunter who snapped, you wouldn’t.
Doesn’t prove anything of course, but it’s the kind of information I’ll bet they already have, and have given to their profilers.
Another thought on the handloading angle, if there were a small bur or mark in the inside of the case forming die, that might be detectable. In fact, I bet even carbide dies have sufficient microscopic marks on them to identify cases that were formed in them. Now, when the shells are fired I don’t know if the brass would ‘flow’ and remove those marks or not, but is another thing they might be considering.
I think that 1) If they knew and 2) If they felt that telling us would help find the shooter then they would tell us. Other than that they’re in the middle of an investigation so it’s in nobody’s interest for them to tell us anything other than what might help find the shooter.
Not true on a couple of points. It is quite easy to get very high accuracy from factory ammunition and rifles. I was easily able to get sub MOA accuracy (1" groups at 100 yards) with a factory Savage 10FP rifle with a couple of different types of factory ammunition. I am most assuredly not a military trained sniper. This is pretty easy to achieve for a modestly skilled shooter when shooting from a rest. The rifle cost less than $500 without scope and is widely available. Of course I’ll get more accuracy with handloads but that is far more than is required for human size targets.
I am a handloader. Telling if a round was hand loaded is an iffy proposition at best. It might be glaringly obvious or might not be apparent. Much harder to tell with a fired round. Likely a moot point as there are many thousands of handloaders in the US.
I haven’t heard any specific ranges for shots aside from the implied 100 yards where the one shell casing was found. 100 yards may seem long to a non-shooter but it absolutely is not in the realm of long range. .223 caliber bolt action rifles are routinely use for rat size targets up to 300-400 yards.
.308 may be a better choice but to put none too fine a point on it .223 appears to be adequate. .308 would be louder than .223 which would make it more difficult for the sniper to conceal his position.
Just speculation but the sniper may be using a sound suppressor. The supersonic boom cannot be reduced but sound suppressors are remarkably effective for muffling the report of the rifle. I had a chance to hear a suppressed .308 rifle several months ago and was quite suprised. Ordinary high velocioty ammunition was quiet entough that we didn’t need hearing protection even under a metal shed roof. Special low velocity ammunition was virtually silent.
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I would think that the weapon in use is NOT an assault rifle. The reason is that they are just too damned conspicuous, and hard to hide. A Remington 700 can be slid in a standard hunting case in a second. A Ruger Mini-14 is a lot easier to conceal than an AR-15. **
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I’ll agree with that except for the Mini-14 which would be an extremely poor choice for accuracy. Actually an AR-15 type is quite easy to conceal as it breaks down in two pieces like a shotgun in a few seconds. The lower reciever and buttstock detach from the upper reciever and barrel with two push pins.
Unfortunately there is little conclusion that can be reached from the shooter choosing an extremely common caliber rather than an exotic one.
I wasn’t saying that you couldn’t make long distance shots with a .223. I was saying that IF the shooter was going for long-distance sniping, the .223 seemed like an odd choice. I guess I’m saying that in that case, it’s more likely that the person is just shooting with the weapon he happens to own, and that he didn’t go out and pick one specifically for this purpose. But that’s pure speculation on my part.
I agree that 100yds is not ‘long distance’. I heard 300yds on TV, but that could have been someone speaking without authoritative knowledge.
As you say, the shots have been entirely too effective, so apparently whoever is doing the shooting knows what he’s doing.
On the handloading issue, one way to tell would be if the case was reloaded with a brand of primer different from the brand of the case, i.e. a Remington primer in a Winchester case.
Also, there may be enough of the bullet left to determine the manufacturer. Once again, if it’s a different brand than the case…
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