Una's Handgun Suggestion Thread

In My Humble Opinion
1

Out of respect for keeping GQ for factual questions/answers in my other thread:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=194347

I’ve started a new thread here.

My original OP in GQ was to determine what the real difference was between .380 ACP handguns and 9mm handguns. Based on the many good answers and suggestions in that thread, I thought a more “IMHO” thread would be a better option at this time.

My situation: I want a handgun for general target shooting and fun (not like serious Olympic-type target shooting), but also one which I would feel I could use for self-defense, or even concealed carry if needed and applicable.

My current handguns: A Ruger P85 9mm, and a Ruger Super Redhawk .44 Magnum.

My current experience level: More than 16 years of shooting experience with handguns, rifles, etc. Am very comfortable with semi-auto handguns and their workings. Can strip my 9mm and re-assemble quickly with eyes completely closed.

My current beef: After years and years of using my P85 (almost since…1987/8?), I have decided that I just am not comfortable shooting with it. I still, after thousands of rounds through it, do not like the kick, the flash, and the torquing it does in my hands.

My suggestion: I considered a .380 ACP, along the lines of a Beretta Cheetah. This was in the hopes of simultaneously getting a better quality gun which would handle recoil better than the Ruger, and getting a smaller-powered gun, so I could focus more on accuracy rather than being thrown by the recoil and flash. Although I did not comment on it in the other thread, the sad truth is, I swear to Great Gun Goddess, I am much more accurate with my .44 Magnum Super Redhawk than with the P85. And that’s really bad. The Super Redhawk has a much more controllable recoil, which tends to be straight back towards me with some barrel lift, as opposed to the P85 which acts as if it wants to leap from my hand and scamper away to hide after every shot.

Price: Price of the gun is more important than ammunition cost. I’d like to keep it under $1000, preferably near $500.

My physical situation: 5’6", small build, 120 pounds, hand size medium/medium large for a female of my height. I can’t grip many S&W handguns with their stock grips due to small hands.

Note this would not likely be a primary home defense weapon. That is typically my stainless Mini-14 ranch rifle with factory stainless folding stock and factory stainless magazine. :slight_smile: Overall, I would like a gun for fun shooting more than anything else, but a little more utilitarian than a .22LR (no Ruger bull-barrel .22’s for me, thanks)

So…what are the suggestions for someone like me? What should I do?

TIA,
Una

2

Well I think it’s a sin for any serious shooter to not have a good .22. No other way most people can afford to shoot thousands of rounds for the same cost as a few hundred rounds centerfire. I handload but still can’t afford to shoot as much center fire pistol as I like.

Don’t like bull bbl Mk IIs. Okay, I’m not a big Ruger fan myself. TheLadyLion has inherited my Browning buckmark and loves it. It’s a standard model but with the iron sights removed and replaced with a Weigand rib and 30mm BSA red dot scope. It’s a sweet little gun, excellent trigger and a tack driver but it may be too similar to a Ruger for your tastes. When I scare up some not otherwise committed cash I’m getting a target model for myself.

Just curious, what is it specifically you don’t like about the Ruger?

You might take a look at the Walther P22. it’s kind of in a class by itself as it’s more a scaled down duty pistol than it is similar to other .22 pistols. It’s a double action with a slide mounted hammerblock safety and a passive firing pin lock as well as a key lock for the trigger built in. It’s a bit odd in that the slide mounted manual safety does not drop the hammer or disconnet the trigger. It really isn’t designed to be carried cocked and locked like a 1911 but it’s one of the few .22s I’d feel totally confident carrying with a round in the chamber as I would my Sig P245.

The downside to the P22 is the trigger is very “European” with a long, farily heavy pull. I’m talking about single action. A lot of takeup and travel, not a target trigger by any means. Double action is pretty severe. Enough practice and your finger will look like that freaky guy who pumps synthoil into his biceps. I’m not sure how much the trigger can be improved of if anyone has a replacement for the unusual transverse coil mainspring. I’ll start bugging the people at Wolff gun springs and see if they’ll make one.

If you’re into NFA exotica Gemtech and others make sound suppressor adapters for it.

It’s an extremly tiny gun but feels good in my hand. Give one a try if you can. They’re very reasonably priced.

3

Maybe its not the power of the bullet but the gun. A super redhawk revolver with its 6 inch barrel has its weight forward of the chamber. Its easier to compensate its kick and thus you tend to be more accurate. The P85 with its 4 1/2 inc barrel is centered and would give you a willy of a kick as will most short barrel pistols.

ever think of a compensator? I dont know if its worth it on a Ruger P85. You might want to consider a Sprinfeild amory competition shooter 1911-A1 with a 45 cal or even a 38 super. starts below a thousand. Great fun in the range and a mean man-stopper if need be.

4

Give a 4’’ Springfield Armory XD 9mm a try. The also have them in .04 and 357sig; the recoil will be more. The also have a 3’’ 9mm sub-compact of the same gun which I hear is perfect for CCW. The XD has a nice thin handle, and weighs more than a Glock i.e. less recoil. It also has a two stage spring making it easier to rack the slide.

Another thing you can do, is go to a range that rents. Pick some different guns, and put a few rounds through each. You can make your own choice that way.

5

The Super Redhawk, being heavier, is probably also more stable to hold and shoot.

I second the suggestion of getting a good .22. Maybe even treat yourself to a nice .22 match pistol, and work on extreme accuracy. But even if you just get a cheaper .22, you’ll be able to put a lot more rounds through it, with more comfort, than you do with your centerfire guns. That means you can really fine-tune your shooting.

If you absolutely don’t want a .22, and you’re looking for a gun you can also conceal, maybe look at one of the chopped-down Colt government model knockoffs chambered for 9mm. My wife has a Combat Commander in 9mm, and it’s a pretty nice gun, and inexpensive. However, I find the 9mm tends to pull the barrel up a lot more than .45ACP.

6

Try one of a couple Berreta .22s. There is one compact DA, and a larger. Either is great as a plinker (altho the larger one is more accurate), and in a pinch they can be used for self-defence.

7

Anthracite, thanks for starting this thread. This will give us more leeway to discuss opinions and apply “fuzzy logic.” First off, I really would like to recommend the Ruger MkII or a good used MkI .22LR pistol to you. As Padeye and others point out, practice (remember those three requirements I mentioned?) will be more enjoyable and cheaper. And if you can master the techniques required to field-strip, clean, and re-assemble the Ruger .22LR pistol, everything else will be a snap for you - you’ll be called upon frequently to help other Mk I & II owners figure out the re-assembly process. I’d like to make a slight detour and then we’ll talk about your selection of “the perfect gun.” The detour is this: I think you should re-evaluate your use of the Ruger Mini-14 as your primary home defense weapon. Unless you live on a farm, miles from your closest neighbor, or in a bunker with thick walls, a carbine firing .233 ammo is not a good idea. The over-penetration of that round is spectacular. If you feel that a “long gun” gives better performance for home protection (because of longer sight radius, better controllability, more confidence), you may want to consider a short-barreled shotgun loaded with birdshot. Contrary to popular thought, the short-barreled shotgun does not “spray” the pellets out in a big cloud. At the distances that a short-barreled shotgun would be used (10 to 15 feet - across a room or down a hall), the pellets are in the form of a “shot column” or stream. Very devastating at close range. The Mossberg 500 (or it’s M&P variant, the Model 590) is a very reliable, user-friendly, affordable shotgun. It has several advantages besides the low cost aspect: the safety is completely ambidextrous and properly situated, the barrel is easily and quickly removed and replaced with others (for other applications such as waterfowl hunting, shooting at sporting clays, and big game hunting [slug barrel for this application]). The U.S. military adopted it as the official combat shotgun, so it has proved itself in that role. Okay, sorry for the sermon - now let’s get down to it. I think you should look at one of the many good 1911s that are available. That’s it - you can thank me later. Seriously, I know many ladies that can use the 1911 style pistol very well. You will be surprised when you first shoot one. Please do shoot one. I guarantee that you will be pleasantly surprised. The really great thing about the 1911 style pistol is that there are so many variations and so many accessories for it. Heck, you can even get a .357 Magnum version from a company called Coonan Arms, if you like. Again, I apologize for the above rant - I just want to make you aware of the possible ill effects of firing a high-power rifle in the confines of a residence in a densely populated area. If those parameters don’t apply to you, please ignore my cautions. For a comparative visual representation of firearm power, I would like to suggest that you find and view a video titled, “Deadly Weapons.” My guess is that you will be able to find it for rent at a gun store in your area, but not at the local Blockbuster Video store.

8

Geez Ralf, give us a paragraph break once in a while :smiley:

That said I have to agree that a .223 carbine wouldn’t be my first choice for home defense either as much as I like my M-4gery.

I also don’t like Ruger .22 pistols as much as most but don’t know if my reasons are the same as Anthracites. I never liked the extreme grip angle of the Mk-I/II and the 22/45 has the grip shape I want but the polymer that Ruger uses for the grip frame has a slick/slippery feel I don’t like. The Browning Buckmark gives me the more or less 1911 shape with the feel of wood and metal. The Walther P22 is just… cool. It’s the gun James Bond would use to shoot rats at the dump. :smiley: I need to mount a laser or a red dot on it next.

Anthracite, You might try different ammo if you otherwise like your P85. A different brand of ammo with different propellant may give less flash. I handload and mostly use Winchester W231 in .45 ACP and find it to be fairly low flash. Also a lighter bullet will generaly give less felt recoil so you might try something with a 115 grain bullet if you aren’t already doing so.

The trend in semi-autos is for lightweight alloy or polymer frames which makes felt recoil worse th an with a heavy steel frame. RR’s suggstion of a 1911 type may be the ticket and it would also give you a slim, single stack grip that should fit better.

9

Dunno if it’s what you’re looking for, but I just recently picked up a Bulgarian made makarov and I’m very happy with it.

It shoots 9x18 makarov ammo, which is about 50% more powerful than .380, and slightly less powerful than 9x19 luger.

They’re very cheap to buy and shoot - $150-170 for a military surplus weapon in very good shape, and $90/1000 to shoot Russian ammo. It’s not a cheaply made weapon - it’s just that east bloc surplus weapons are cheap.

They’re reputed to be extremely reliable, as pretty much all east bloc weapons are - pretty accurate - and quite light and slim, they’re a common carry pistol.

Even if you don’t want to use it as a primary pistol, at that cost, it’s easy to own as an extra fun pistol.

10

A good all-around pistol, for me, is the SIG-Sauer Compact P229 in .357 SIG. Stopping power, concealability, accuracy, and reliability.

But, then again, if you ask my any class of firearm, I’m probably going to respond with a Sigarms model, 'cuz my brand loyalty extends to the lower regions of fanboy-ism.

11

I’ve always been a wheel-gun fan myself. You might want to consider the S&W model 586 or 686 with a 4 inch barrel. With these you can use .38 Special, .38 Special +P, .38 Special +P+ or .357 caliber rounds, depending on which feels most controllable for you.

You stated the S&W models have grips a bit too big for you. Have you tried aftermarket grips (Pachmayr, etc.)?

Taurus also makes fine revolvers in the configurations I mentioned above. Heck, my mom carries one (model 85CHSS, a stainless steel, 5-shot .38 Special with a 2-inch barrel)! I should note that she went through the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Georgia. Shot pretty well, too.

12

Yay! I was hoping for this. Suggesting a .45 in the GQ thread just didn’t seem right.

Most of this has already been mentioned, but I already had it typed up and didn’t want to let it go to waste. if I’m gonna do this much typing, I want somebody to see it, dammit. :slight_smile:

Why I’m getting a 1911-model .45:

I’ve heard several people say that the .45 doesn’t kick as bad as the 9mm. Sure, it’s a bigger bullet, but it’s moving a good bit slower. I know from personal experience that the .45 has less felt recoil than a .40; the .40 (and 9mm, I’ve heard) has a kind of hard snap to it, whereas the .45’s more of a push.

Another bonus of the .45 is that the 1911A1 design fits nicely in small hands because of the narrow grip (I have small hands, and don’t like the feel of the Rugers, Glocks, Berettas, or even the Springfiel XD), and comes in a wide range of sizes (3" barrelled ultra-compact up to 6" target guns). Springfield, the brand I’m considering (haven’t bought one yet, because everybody around here wants MSRP), even makes one with the short frame and a 4" barrel, which is still small enough to conceal but avoids the excessive flash and recoil of a 3".

The 1911 is fairly easily concealable for a big auto because it’s thin and flat.

Another plus for the 1911: it’s all steel, meaning more weight, and therefore less recoil than the plastic-framed Ruger.

The Springfield Mil-Spec (which isn’t actually mil-spec, but it’s the closest of all the modern commercial ones) is a great starter .45, and can be had for around $450 or a bit less (MSRP’s $550). The ones with more features (ambi safety, prettier finish, etc) are all under $1000, except the longslide target model.

13

Go to a couple of gun stores and ask about local shooting clubs or groups and drop by their range sometime. A lot of gun swapping takes place on the range. Most all people are more than happy to let you shoot a couple of rounds with their gun, especially if you return the favor. The best feeling gun in the store can be an unruly monster when firing, and some of the more awkward feeling ones can be a dream to shoot.

I’ve owned a lot of handguns, because of the situation you are in now. Someone would rave about a model, I would buy it, shoot it, hate it, sell it, and buy the next talk of the town with the same results. Finally I found what works for me, after going to a range and trying a few other guns with a “test drive”. Glocks and Sigs are great, and a lot of people love them. Personally, I hate the way they fit my hand and the way they feel when firing. A good gun is like a car. Anything will work, but somewhere out there is “the one” for you.

If you are interested in trying the models I have, let me know and I could zip out there sometime. Shoot some guns and take a tour of the Lake City plant.

14

As I said on the other thread, if recoil is a problem go heavy. Barrel heavy is best. As mentioned, use a lighter bullet. Someone else mentioned Ruger Mark pistols. Best gun investment ever. I got a Slab-sided competition model a few years ago. You can fire all ten with little barrel lift in a few seconds. Which, by the way, is a hoot and not expensive. Shooting one can really improve your technique.

Big recoil guns OTOH, if shot too much at one time, can cause the shooter to ingrain a nasty flinch. I can develop one quickly blasting 3" slugs out of a 12 gauge. Not to mention the shoulder bruises. Hot .357 loads out of a 3" S&W Model 13 I shoot five at a time. Then, three clips or more out of a .22 to allow my central nervous system to recover.

It’s funny that you also shoot a Redhawk. I know a guy who has a Ruger Blackhawk. He loads his own ammunition. :eek: Up to 310 grain bullets at ?1200? fps (he’s loaded the biggest loads up to the max. occasionally)* = big recoil. That gun is a great way to test your ability to not flinch. I usually fail.

*By moving up little powder increment at a time and carefully examining the results at each new level. He’s never caused any serious malfunctions or breakage, to his credit. He must have shot 3000 or more rounds through that Blackhawk, many more .44 specials than charging-water-buffalo-grade .44 mags. to be fair.

15

I feel qualified to comment on this thread, since I used to own a .380 Auto, a Bulgarian Makarov like the one mentioned above, and have fired a Ruger like the one mentioned in the OP plenty of times.
First, I would forget the .380 Auto as a “fun gun” round. The problem is not the round itself, but the guns chambered for it. They are not made for any kind of accurate shooting or plinking. I owned a Bersa .380 that I thought was an excellent gun for the money, but it just wasn’t that accurate. And it is one of the better-made guns in this caliber. The stuff made to even higher standards, like Colt’s pocket .380, are still not all that accurate. Short barrels + a low velocity round = balloon trajectory.

Second, I can verify everything SenorBeef said about the Makarov. The gun is so solid and ruggedly built you could hold it by the barrel and use it to hammer nails, if necessary. The #1 quality the Russians demanded from a firearm is durability and reliability. I doubt there is ANY handgun in the world with those attributes in greater measure than the Makarov.
But having said that, I still sold mine. That thing kicked like a MULE! Honest to God, it felt like I had jammed my wrist every time I fired it. And I only used the Wolf-brand Russian ammo it was designed to fire.
HOWEVER, if you really want a .380, they do make Makarovs in this caliber. If you want a gun in that caliber, get the Makarov. the only difference between these guns and the ones chambered in 9x18 Makarov are the chamber and barrel dimensions, and a slightly weaker recoil spring. All other parts are identical. In fact, the Makarov pistol is quite heavy for the .380 round, which would make it very controllable compared to other guns in this caliber.

Personally, I think the best thing for you would probably be a revolver in .22 Magnum or .32 H&R Magnum. More punch than a .22 LR, but still relatively low-powered and controllable. The .32 H&R Magnum has greater muzzle energy than the .380 Auto, and approaches the 9mm Para.
Ruger offers its excellent Single-Six in both these calibers. Those spade grips would probably fit great in a woman’s hand.

16

That is true to a large extent, only because a lot of cheap guns are made in .380. To say that all .380 pistols are inaccurate is, well, inaccurate, depending on the definition of accurate shooting. With the wife’s Walther PPK, I consistently shot 2" groups at 25 yards. There are a lot of 9’s and 40’s that can’t shoot groups like that. The Sterling copy I have shoots about a 6" group. Bersa does make an excellent gun for the money. I haven’t owned any of their 380’s but I’ve owned a few of their 22’s. The accuracy was fair at best, compared to better manufacturers.

With very few exceptions, with guns you get what you pay for.

17

Also, just to be a bit of a pain in the ass, while I agree with nearly everything that a lot of people have said about the wonderful .22, the OP has made it clear that she is not looking for a .22. Why is everyone still recommending it to her? While a .22 is the greatest handgun (and rifle) anyone can own for fun, practice and for the cash savings, especially a beginner, one of the keys is “more utilitarian”. If you aren’t target shooting or hunting rabbits, a .22 isn’t a terribly versatile round, even though I know some old timers who have killed many a deer with a .22.

I’ve been shot with a .22 so I can attest to both the effectivity of the round as well as the benefit of shooting someone with a bigger bullet. If that doesn’t make sense, think about it a spell.

She doesn’t want a .22. She wants a gun with a bit more oomph.

18

I just re-read the OP and realized that she wanted a gun that could be concealed-carried, if necessary. So my suggestion of the Ruger Single-Six is off, although a DA Smith and Wesson Ladysmith in either of those calibers would work perfectly. The grip on that gun is also quite handy.

The Walther PPK did not occur to me, mostly because I have never seen one for sale anywhere, at any price. My impression was they were uncommon, and pricey when found. But after looking around a bit online, I found them in the $500 range, so I guess I was wrong. It sounds like this would work for her as well as anything yet suggested.

19

Really? Huh.

I’d heard before I picked it up that they have a very stiff recoil because of the blowback action, but I don’t feel it. Maybe it’s my inexperience with pistols, but it seems perfectly managable to me - not painful at all. I’ve only really had experience with a handful of calibers, but even the glock I fired in 10mm didn’t seem like that much. My makarov’s kick feels lighter than the only comparable thing I’ve shot, which is 9mm out of a taurus PT35.

Well, to each their own, I guess.

20

There are a couple of reasons I don’t want a .22. And I have fired .22 pistols before, for some time, I just don’t own one (I do own and enjoy 3 .22 rifles, however).

I am concerned because I do get enough mis-fires on .22 that I worry about reliability. In any given day at the range, I typically have one misfire. And, extraction seems to be an issue too - I cannot tell you why, but the .22 seems to be a “dirty” round that fouls the gun much more so than I would expect.

In addition, practically speaking for the multiple purposes I have, a .22 is of very low effectiveness as a defense weapon. Oh, I know they will kill or maim at least under the right circumstances. I’ve met large males who said with extreme disdain that “You could empty your little .22 into me and I’d still rape and kill you.”, and given the large size of some of them, I could believe it.

I know people swear by guns such as the Ruger target .22’s, and they certainly have their place, but it’s just not what I’m interested in.