Gun Question - Advice Needed - 9mm vs. .380

Factual Questions
1

Fierra and I went out shooting today to test a new .22 rifle and scope we bought* (part of the ever-increasing arsenal of the Lesbian Gun Club), and while at the range, I also fired my 9mm some.

And, after having owned the 9mm (a Ruger P85) for nearly…14 years?, I realized something.

I don’t like it. I do, and always have, flinched just a little when firing it to make it a gun which does not lend itself to extreme accuracy.

Oh, I can shoot well enough to a small area to kill someone who threatened me, but I’m looking forward to a more accurate mode of shooting, and one where I flinch less.

So…I started thinking about the gun.

I think there is one of two solutions:

  1. The P85 is too poor a weapon, and has excessive kick, excessive flash, and generally what I need to do is get another 9mm, of much better manufacture.
  2. Or, alternately, the 9mm is just too powerful a gun for me to be comfortable with it, and I need to downsize - but to what? The only semi-auto round just under a 9mm I can think of that is common is the .380 auto.

So…my GQ is: what difference is there between a .380 and a 9mm, really? I neither own a .380, nor do I have any acquaintences who have one, nor know a gun shop owner who will lend me one.

What I’m wondering is - I’m thinking of a Beretta Cheetah .380, versus a Beretta Cougar 9mm. Is there a substantial difference between the level of flash, kick, recoil, and controlability between a 9mm and a .380? And what would be the difference in the usefulness of a .380 for personal defense, versus a 9mm? I tend to think that, if my control and comfort improved, that increased level of comfort and accuracy would outweigh the difference between the power of the weapons.

Any thoughts?

Una
*[sub]And not to brag, but at about 35 feet I put three successive .22 rounds though the same freaking hole (using a Tasco 3x scope) [/sub] :eek:

2

Without delay let me say Lesbian Gun Club… BAND NAME and I really mean it.

3

One chart comparing various cartriges. The 9mm–based on this chart*–is about half again as powerful as a .380. OTOH, you should always use a gun that you feel fairly comfortable with. I have personal experience with a Ruger like you describe. It has a sharp vertical recoil, IMO. I didn’t like it.

I always recommend .357 magnums, in part for the ability to shoot .38 specials (still quite powerful). That, and the first shot reliability of a revolver. Of course, Desert Eagle… Anyway, a heavy-barreled .357 is great for shooting powerful .38s. The felt recoil is not bad.

*There are so many loads for both.

4

Bear with me here - is .380 as I’m calling it is the same on that chart as .380 ACP? If so, 9mm Parabellum is more than double the energy for the “hot” loadings. And it’s interesting that the bullet weight is actually more for the .380 than the 9mm? Surely that can’t be correct…? :confused:

Perhaps I need “lighter” loadings for the 9mm, but I have to tell you, the reliability of shell extraction is already only fair to good.

5

I’m not a real expert but I can give you some information.

The .380 is an American name for the ammo. In Germany where the 9mm started, it is known as the 9mm kurtz which stands for short. It has the same diameter as the 9mm, but a less powerful cartridge.

Being a lighter powder load it will of course have less recoil and flash. Now we get into a lot of different items:

[ul][li]A .380 will usually be a lighter, smaller gun(not always) and because it is lighter it may jump just as much in your hand as a 9mm.[]A .380 won’t have as much muzzle velocity as a 9mm and will have less hitting power. 9mm have a lot of velocity and tend to shoot through a person. Lots of penetration though if they’re behind something.[]As far as accuracy goes, most handgun confrontations occur at a distance of 20 feet(FBI statistics). Especially in-home and personal defense you wouldn’t be shooting at a great distance.For my personal opinion, I tend t agree with beagle. For a basic all-around gun I like a wheel-gun(revolver). Personal favorite is S&W Model 66 w/4" barrel. I have the option of firing .38 Special for target or .357 for effect. You can even fire snake-shot if your aim isn’t too good. In a real fire-fight you’d be surprise how inaccurate you can be. Plus a wheel gun is easier to see if it is loaded and no worry if the safety is on or off. It don’t have one. You also can fire itdouble action or single action depending on circumstances. Another benefit is that it is stainless steel and relatively easy to keep clean.[/ul][/li]
Shop out your options. You may be able to rent different guns at your local range to try them out. You can around here. Good luck and be careful.

6

I’ve looked at the .357/.38 options, and they are good ones, and that is good advice, I do agree and very much appreciate the helpful suggestions. However, I feel I would like a compact semi-auto for this case similar to either the Cheetah or the Cougar. So, I’m really trying to determine the factual difference between handling the two of them (which must, of course, be based on opinion and experience of fellow shooting Dopers as well), so I can keep this a “GQ” and not make manhattan mad at me. :slight_smile:

That is - what I end up buying may be a revolver solution, but as part of my decision process, I am trying to see if people are of the opinion that I may fare better with a .380, or if my Ruger is just such crap that I ought to abandon it.

7

A .380 will kill somebody at close range in a self defense situation, a 9mm just has a little more punch at distance.

If you can, check out the SIG P232 in .380 or the P226 in 9mm. I’m not a handgun shooter, but my dad is, and he has all brands of auto pistols. He has a very high opinion of the SIG autos, especially at less than maximum load (he target shoots a lot and doesn’t use maximum loads to keep wear down) he has no issues with shells ejecting.

He raves on his P232, and will even mix different loads in the clip to show how it will cycle anything without a jam.

FWIW the P232 is his carry gun, so he evidently trusts it quite a bit to both function and do the job.
Disclaimer: I don’t want a bunch of preaching to me about carrying guns, the necessity of carrying guns, the ethics of carrying guns, the practicality of carrying guns, or any issue concerning the ownership, purchase, use, or possesion of guns. I’m just passing on info pertaining to the OP.

8

I have a model 26 Glock 9mm for carry and enjoy shotting it. Wife has also shot it with no complains.

We also have a couple .357 Colt Pythons that we target practice using light loaded .357 or 38 SPL. My wife prefers the 38 SPL loads for fun shooting.

She has a S&W Lady Smith 38 SPL for carry. The Lady Smith will handle P+P+ ammo so one can have a pretty powerful load.

I wouldn’t want a smaller weapon for self defense.

See our web site for pics of them.

9

Yes, .380 ACP. As nebco9 said, the 9mm is the same diameter (.355). That’s the 9mm Browning Long. I’m no expert on 9mm, having never owned one. It’s odd that you appear to have the exact same gun a college friend had. I like .45s. I honestly prefer the recoil of most .45s to 9s. I know that doesn’t make sense.

I agree, shoot different guns. If recoil is a problem, think heavy. If you are using it for home defense, who cares if it weighs a lot? Hunting or the military are a different story.

10

Anthracite, what 9mm load are you using in your Ruger? A generic 115-grain? +P or +P+ loads in 9mm are incredibly ‘hot’, and are the source of many range-woes at my club. Much military surplus 9mm is Nato spec, which is 124grain +P, which could be causing problems. Try (if you are not already) shooting some 115 grain, (Walmart usually has cheap Winchester White Box if you don’t want to shop online).

Try a Sig-Sauer P228 (adopted by the military as the M11(?)). which is a ‘medium’ frame 9mm, and very comfortable for those with smaller hands. Also, the Glock 19 gets high marks from smaller-handed people. How well you can grip it will certainly affect percieved recoil and muzzle-flip.

But to sort of address the actual OP :wink: :

9mm is cheap, and is under constant develpment. You can get a case of cheap range ammo for ~100.00 (less if you shoot Russian), and then use some Black Hills or Federal (or whatever, lots of choices with 9mm) for a defensive load.

With .380, you will pay about 1/3 more for range ammo, have a smaller selection of defensive ammo, and a less effective cartidge all around. Smaller, slower, more expensive.

Then again, rule of thumb at the club is, ‘When in doubt, buy both…’

11

Wow, I feel like an idiot. I have no idea what +P means.

Well, today I used “Winchester 9mm Luger 115 grain FMJ Target/Range”. It also says in small letters “USA9MMVP”. To tell the truth, I think it is Wal-Mart origin as well.

12

That ammo is called Winchester white box in the common tongue. That is about as light a load as you can get. Mostly shot for targets.

If you want a reliable round for self defense, they the Glaser Safety Slug. You can find them in 9mm, and they will stop a pretty much anything out there with little recoil.

http://www.safetyslug.com

I think the blue tip is 83 grains, but will stop a bull moose. Expensive though.

Also think along the lines of shot placement. Most deaths caused with guns are 38 cal and below, most being 25 and 22 cal. If you hit a vital area with a small gun, you will still stop them just as well as a .45.

13

Hmmm……should proof read.

You can also stop by http://www.ammolab.com and take a look for yourself at the results. You will find that some 9mm performs as well as .40 and .45 but they are all pretty much hot rounds with recoil.

14

How ironic. Today is the last day I’ll ever carry my Ruger P89. After 12 years and 22,000 rounds through it, I’m retiring it. Tomorrow night I’m qualifying with my new Sig p229 .40 cal.

9mm’s usually don’t have much kick. They’re pop guns. The Ruger, however, does not handle recoil and muzzle flip as well as others do. I liked it though because it was ambidextrous.

If your looking for a carry gun, .380 isn’t bad. Everyone will tell you it’s not that great for defense. But they’re forgetting 2 things:
First, concealability. A larger caliber, even if put in a compact gun, is still going to make for a bigger gun than the .380. The second thing is, large calibers in a compact gun REALLY can kick.
The .380 is fine for a ccw gun. Don’t go any lower though. A .32 or .25, or .22, though all can be deadly, are still too small to depend on.
Now, might I suggest a Kel-Tec .380? The picture doesn’t do it justice. This gun is a sweetheart! It looks like a cheaply made Saturday Night Special, but it isn’t. It’s well made and dependable. A lot of cops are carrying them off duty. I’m getting one myself. It’s light and extremely compact. My friend has one with the belt clip. It is very, very concealable. I love this little pistol. Go try one out.

15

Home defense? IMO, .38 / .357 ( cheap to keep in practice with. Wheel gun for dependability.)

Concealed carry? IMO, .380 is fine, conditions of carry are more important, hammers and round cylinders are harder to conceal and to get into action if you are not in a proper carry rig. Some of the small flat auto’s would be better for the way women usually carry pistols on a daily basis. (many are double and single action both)

Expenses seems to be the biggest hang-up for trying to keep proficient. Enjoyment is prolly second for me. So IMO, definitely get rid of a gun you don’t enjoy and get one you do. Proper loading will take care of a lot of the ‘power’ concerns.

YMMV

16

Actually, the .380 started here in America as the .38 ACP for the original Browning-designed… was it the 1903 auto? Something like that. The Europeans, preferring the metric, called it the 9mm Kurz.

Anthracite- “Plus-P” means, literally, “plus pressure”, IE, the cartridge is loaded “hotter” than standard SAAMI spec. This gives higher velocity, and thus striking power, from the same cartridge, but at the obvious cost of increased flash, recoil and noise.

The additional fireworks are considered unimportant for the primary use- literally, close-quarters combat (whether civilian home/personal defense or police/SWAT CQB) - compared to the improved knockdown.

But for day-to-day plinking, there’s no reason for the additional battering, both of shooter and firearm. As noted, try the cheap white-box stuff, or some of the “Wolf” brand Russian-import.

As for options… well, truthfully, if you’re just at the range plinking, hell, buy a .22. It’s cheaper, quieter, less ferocious and lets you concentrate on sight pictures. Browning, Ruger, Colt and S&W all make budget-priced .22s- pick one up with about a dozen magazines. Then head to the range with a box of Saltines- Chuck the crackers on the backstop and plink 'em offhand from 10 to 50 paces back. (No trash to clean up afterwards.)

For a carry, I wouldn’t recommend anything under a 9mm with 124 grain HP. Though +P isn’t necessarily needed.

The .380 is considerably less powerful than the 9mm, though still a decent round. The problem here is that the .380 is a “blowback” as opposed to a locked breech. (If you’re not familiar, please Google- explaining it is a novel in and of itself.)

Suffice to say that a blowback has a certain amount of mass to the frame and slide to help absorb the recoil, so most .380s aren’t necessarily that much physically smaller than a nine.

To cover your original two questions- Yes, the P85 isn’t that good for a 9mm. It’s rather bulky, and the first-gen Rugers had poor triggers. There’s better choices, though most cost a bit more. Spring for a single-action, not a DA- and if you’re going to conceal it, go for a single-stack rather than a high-cap.

And two, your noted Beretta choice in .380 isn’t bad. If you’re a movie fan, that’s the one Trinity used in the “Dodge this” bit. :smiley:

On the other hand, a smaller handgun tends to magnify felt recoil- there’s less mass to absorb the forces. So it’s a toss-up.

Like I said, if you’re looking to plink, get a .22. If you’re looking for a carry gun, get the more powerful 9mm in a fairly compact version, and just shoot it enough to maintain proficiency- then practice with the .22 so you don’t “train a flinch”.

17

.380 is a shorter 9mm. Problem is that most .380’s are small weapons, and usually have a harder kick than many 9mm’s. My wife had a Walther PPK .380, and that thing was punishing. A Beretta 9mm had too much muzzle flip, which put a strain on her wrists. She got ahold of my Desert Eagle 9mm, and can easily rapid fire an entire mag with one hand and stay on target. Even the compact versions are heavy, with a lot of muzzle weight, which reduces the muzzle flip a lot. She claimed it as her own and “traded” me her PPK which I promptly got rid of.

If you are looking for a more comfortable shooting weapon, I really don’t think a .380 will be your answer just because of their size, and as mentioned, blowback operation. I would suggest finding another 9mm that suits you a little better if you want to stay with a semi-auto, unless you have the cash to burn on a Desert Eagle .357. A .357 revolver will give you the option of using .38 ammo for practice with nearly no kick at all. I have a 6" Ruger GP100 that I’ll make you a very good deal on if you are interested. Also, I’d be happy to loan you my DE 9mm for you to play around with to see if you would like to get one of those. Of all the 9mm’s that I’ve used, that is easily my favorite.

18

For Defense loads we use:

Glock 9mm, Cor Bon +P 90 GR JHP Velocity 1480 FPS.

S&W Lady Smith, 38 SPEC +P+, 125 GR JHP Velocity 1125 FPS.

Pythons 357 Mag 125 GR Hi- SHOK JHP

For target, I light load 357 or 38 SPEC for my wife in the Pythons… much more fun than a 22 and cost less, for I reload 357 and 38 SPEC, cast my bullets from used wheel weights.

19

I feel I have to step up and defend the unfairly maligned Ruger. I’ve had the P89 DC in 9mm (and its cousin the P90 in 45 ACP) for years, and am comfortable with both weapons. In my experience, the Ruger handles recoil just fine, and I can hit the 10-ring consistently at 25 feet.

Which only goes to show that not everyone is the same. (I once had a Russian-made pistol, around a .32, that I couldn’t hit a thing with expect by physically throwing the pistol at the target. I complained to my range instructor about what a piece of crap it was, and he promptly put 5 through the X-ring with it and handed it back to me.)

I think the problem is mroe related to the size, weight, and grip of the gun than the load – if you’re shooting 115 grain 9mm and it’s giving you problems, I think you’d benefit from a different gun.

I’d like to recommend the Browning Hi-Power. It has a smaller grip, but it doesn’t give up a great amount of weight - 31 ounces with empty clip. It’s a “classic” 9mm, after the design of the Colt 1911, and I have found it to be a great favorite with people that throught the Ruger too unwieldly.

It’s unclear to me if you’re talking about a Mini Cougar or the Cougar 8000… but since you’re comparing to the Cheetah, I’ll assume it’s the Mini Cougar under consideration. My general objection to the compact Berettas is that you give up a fair amount of accuracy as you shrink the frame and barrel. I owned a Cheetah in 22LR; it was a perfectly fine plinking gun but even with the ultra-light recoil of the .22, I found it difficult to hit black at 25 feet.

I second Turbo Dog’s endorsement of the .357, by the way, and agree that practicing with .38 wadcutter is relatively inexpensive and easy on the wrists.

A lot comes down to what the purpose of the weapon is. If it’s home defense, frankly a shotgun with 0000 shot is the best option. For personal defense, stopping power is an issue, and I like the .357 or a .45 ACP. If you’re shooting paper regularly, and want good all around skills that include 9mm, I recommend the Browning Hi-Power.

  • Rick
20

Also, I forgot. I have a Sterling .380, which is a cheap knock off of the Walther PPK that you are welcome to borrow as well, if you want to get a feel for a .380.