Gun Question - Advice Needed - 9mm vs. .380

Factual Questions
21

Well I agree with some that moving to a .380 won’t help, not because of the ammo but becaus of the smaller, blowback operated guns that will have more felt recoil. IMO a PPK has much more harsh recoil than a 9mm with delayed recoil action.

I think some specific traning is in order. If you know someone who reloads ask them to load some dummy rounds for you with a FMJ bullet, no powder and leave in the spent primer. Have a shooting partner load this in a magazine then an unspecified number of live rounds on top. You’ll be suprised when the dummy round comes up and certainly identify your recoil and begin to eliminate it.

If you want some contrary advice, how about a 9mm that is heavier than average? Take a look at a CZ-75 or EAA Witness. The Witness is Tanfoglio, an Italian clone of the CZ-75, extremely well made and very modestly priced. It’s also all steel and the heavier frame will reduce felt recoil compared to a alloy or polymer frame gun.

You can also get a compensated version of the Witness but I don’t think it helps your situation as much. It doesn’t so much reduce recoil as muzzle rise and won’t change flinching. Anyway, I’ve got a stainless 9mm Witness and one in .45ACP with the compensator and am looking for a third.

22

Anthracite, you have stumbled upon one of the classic debates in the gun culture. The discussion of the “best” handgun to use for personal protection has been going on for quite a long time. I always have a client answer this question, “What do you want this gun to do?” If the anwer is for concealed carry, I always recommend a semi-auto pistol in the largest caliber that the shooter can use accurately, carried in a “Beltster” or Yaqui slide rig or something similar. If home defense is the sole intended use, then a revolver in the largest caliber would be indicated. Here are my reasons for these choices: for concealed carry, the semi-auto pistol is flatter, making it easier to conceal and more comfortable to carry; also, if the appropriate caliber and ammo is chosen with care, the semi-auto will provide less FELT recoil (this is due to the operation of the mechanism using some of the energy generated by the firing of the ammo). Home defense requirements are differenent because of the nature of the storage and employment of the handgun. In this case, you want a firearm that follows “the KISS principle.” A revolver is a true “point and click” tool - no manual safeties, nothing to do to get a round into the chamber (assuming the revolver is stored with ammunition in the cylinder), and no additional devices to add for operation. Notice that I said in both instances that you should have “the largest caliber.” By this, I mean the largest caliber that you can comfortably and confidently use with consistent practical accuracy. Practical accuracy with a handgun can be defined as being able to put five rounds into a 10" paper plate at a distance of seven yards. For me, that definition works out to a minimum of 9mm in a semi-auto pistol and a minimum of .357 Magnum in a revolver. Now that we have that definition out of the way, let’s explore the selection of ammunition for your chosen firearm… For both types of handguns, there are excellent choices for use in “close encounters of the violent kind.” Ideally, you should choose a bullet that transfers all the available energy into the intended target, but does not completely penetrate the target and endanger others beyond the target. There are many JHP (jacketed hollowpoint) bullets that do this job successfully. The trick is to fire several types of ammo in your selected handgun to determine which gives the best accuracy and - in the case of semi-auto pistols - will reliably function the mechanism. And then, of course, there are the three requisites for maintaining your level of competence: practice, practice, practice. And now for my personal preferences - for CCW use, I carry a Officer’s size (3.5" barrel) Para-Ordnance .45ACP in a Beltster two-holster model belt; for home defense, there is a S&W Model 13 in my armoire. Both are loaded with high-velocity JHP ammo. These are the general guidelines, and there are exceptions, of course. For instance, S&W semi-auto pistols might be considered for both uses because they can be stored at home with the magazine loaded but stored seperately from the pistol - this renders the pistol incapable of firing a shot, even if there is a round already in the chamber. There is enough additional information about this subject to fill several large books, but suffice it to say that you have embarked upon a very interesting and exciting investigation. There are many knowledgeable folks here at SDMB, and I am sure you will lots of good information to help you make your decisions regarding the appropriate firearm to choose for your needs. I would also like to suggest that you think about taking one of the excellent classes offered by NRA and others that will teach you proper gun-handling techniques. As a matter of fact, even if you are not interested in obtaining a CCW (carry concealed weapon), the required class is a good starting point. Good luck in your quest to find “the perfect gun.”

23

Oh, and BTW, Padeye - I am sure you already know this, but Tanfoglio made the same basic pistol for several companies, including IMI and FIE as well as others. The first clone was the TZ-75, imported by FIE of Hialeah, Florida, and was highly praised by “American Rifleman” when it first came out. I have seen several of these early TZ-75s for sale (NIB!) in stores around the state up here. Most notably, I have been slowly wearing down the Sporting Goods Department Manager at Fred Meyer’s (a regional department store, I think) in Anchorage concerning a TZ-75 in .41AE that he’s had for YEARS! Anyway, you might check out some of the other versions besides the EAA Witness. [did you see the recent review in one of the gun magazines on the EAA Witness Silver Trophy competition model?]

24

Back in the late eighties I spent four years in a NATO bunker in Germany. There were a pile of gun magazines there (piled this high) and I read them all. One writer, Masaad Ayoob, did a lot of research on what size bullet produced one-shot kills. IIRC, he recommended that you don’t try to kill anyone with anything smaller than a 38 special.

25

radar ralf

Very interesting post!

** T. Slothrop **

I agree with what you read. I have read many stories where people used a small guns that didn’t have the stopping power.

I would never recommend smaller than 38 SPL. And then using only the most powerful load available.

26

Let me just chime in and mention the funnest ACP I’ve ever fired. The CZ-50.

Yes, it’s only a .32, and I bought it to introduce my uneducated (read city-girl) wife to handguns, but I’ve had so much fun shooting it, due to it’s accuracy and ease of handling, that it’s become my carry.

It’s small, but my confidence with it leads me to believe it’s adequate defence with the right hollow point.
It was the official Czech police pistol until the mid '80s IIRC, and you can pick one up for a pittance.

No pile ons from the large calibre club please :slight_smile:

I got to fire a Desert Eagle .50 last year and it was a memorable experience. Ton o’ fun, but can you hide it ? lol

A great little shooter

27

And that’s a point that too many people here are missing.
I regularly carry a concealed weapon. The key word being “concealed”. Large calibers, even in compact guns, are still larger than a small caliber in a small gun.
During the cold winters here, it’s easy to hide my large .40 under a heavy coat.
But during the summer, wearing shorts and a tee, it’s impossible to hide that thing. I would rather have a small caliber pistol in my pocket than no gun at all.
By the way (sorry for the hijack Anthracite) I qualified tonight at the p.d. with my sig .40. It functioned flawlessly, and actually produced less muzzle flip/felt recoil using 180grain loads than my Ruger p89 did with 115grain. And the Crimson Trace Laser Grips I put on had every one a buzz. It’s a great duty gun, I love it. But I’m still getting a Kal-Tec .380 for concealed carry.

28

I want to thank everyone for the replies.

It seems a summary is in order:

  1. The .380 seems to be a much less powerful cartridge than the 9mm, possibly to the point of being of limited use for personal protection.

  2. Perhaps getting a better quality 9mm is a superior option.

  3. The .357/.38 option is still a good idea, but not quite what I’m interested in right now.

  4. The .380 may not even have that much reduced recoil, given the lighter frame of the weapon.

  5. Ammunition is more expensive, but that’s not really a concern.

  6. The Kal-Tec looks like a very small gun - it’s hard to compare its size with a Cheetah from the web link. It might be too light, maybe?

  7. I love Trinity. That alone might force me to buy a Beretta. :smiley:

  8. It would be best, of course, to actually shoot one and see. But it’s difficult to do that.

I am considering starting an MPSIMS thread about gun recommendations, out of respect for the GQ staff and keeping this more on the GQ level here. The reason I didn’t post about what my overall desire was was to try to adhere to that. Basically, I wanted a gun which I could use for non-serious target purposes, but also for defense/carry if need be. And I wanted something that would make me flinch less. I mean, I can handle a large weapon - I have a Super Redhawk, after all. But that doesn’t mean I’m comfortable shooting it.

I have a spare assault rifle I’ve never used that I’m looking to trade in on a better handgun, so perhaps I should start a thread asking for pros/cons of various weapons.

One other thing that is interesting - when Doc Nickel says that the .380 is a blowback weapon, that’s a function of the gun, not the caliber, correct? :confused: I mean, I think one of my 9mm assault rifles is a blowback weapon…I’d have to dig it out to see.

Una

29

Blowback is a mode of operation, and has nothing- well, very little- to do with caliber.

Typically, it’s only used on smaller guns- .22s, .32s, .380, some cheap nines, etc, but if the gun is big enough (since only springs and inertia keep the bolt closed in a blowback) 9mm, .45 and others can be used.

Your “assault rifle” is probaly one of those tubular Sten-wannabe rifles, and thus is probably blowback.

Overall, this has to do with chamber pressure. Simply put, you need to keep the breech shut until the bullet has actually left the barrel and the pressure has dropped to somewhat safer levels.

If the chamber pressure is too high as the empty case is being extracted from the chamber, the pressure can blow out the thin brass once it’s no longer supported by the chamber wall.

Most handguns of 9mm and above use one variation or another of the Browning-designed short-recoil locking breech. The barrel has lugs at the top that engage recesses in the upper inside surface of the slide. The barrel is held immobile- when the gun starts to recoil, the barrel and slide move together.

After the assembly has moved backwards a little ways, a link, cam or pin forces the barrel to slide downward a bit- this disengages it from the slide, which is then free to continue rearward to extract the old case and chamber a new.

Clear your Ruger and cycle it by hand. Pull the slide back slowly and watch the barrel through the ejection port. It moves with the slide for a short distance, then at a certain point you’ll see it drop, then stop, and the slide is free to move back.

In a blowback, only the inertia of the slide combined with the mainspring tension holds the breech shut. For the lower-powered rounds, this is more than adequate. For a higher-powered round, 9mm and above seems to be the cutoff, the slide would have to be HUGE to help overcome the recoil impulse, and thus isn’t really practical.

Though as mentioned, a larger rifle has plenty of room for a large hammer/bolt/slide, so it can get away with a blowback operation. The Thompson (the infamous “Tommy gun”) in .45 ACP is effectively a blowback- though it has a bolt that weighs as much as some small complete handguns.

Now, as far as other options, for a ‘carry’ you might look into the S&W 3913. It’s a tiny DA single-stack 9mm. It’ll be lighter and considerably thinner than the P85, and the last time I shot one it was amazingly accurate. The bark of the round might actually be a little worse, being a slightly shorter barrel and a lighter gun, but a true carry gun is, as they say, carried a lot and shot very little.

30

This does not relate directly to the OP. I have a Glock 21, that is a .45. Although it is a larger calibre, it is slower moving than a 9mm. Of the pistols in the Glock family, only one or two have a lower muzzle energy than the .45. It’s my understanding that this translates into a smaller kick–less energy going away from you means less coming toward you–than the Glock 9mm, or most of the other chambers they sell. IIRC, the only Glocks with less kick than the .45 are the little stubby concealed-carry models.

Anyway, before you drop a bunch of bread on a .380, I’d strongly recommend trying out a .45. The bullet is bigger, but it moves nice and slow. IIRC, one study found that in the shootings they investigated, something like ninety percent of people shot with a .45 went down with the first round. (I don’t have a cite for that!) Check it out.

31

Anthracite, please do start another thread. There seems to be some confusion about several things here, and we should move to a more appropriate location - whatever that is. No need to irk the moderators…

32

I think we’re all missing something here, that’s been touched on lightly: How big are your hands, Anthracite? I think you would be happy with either caliber, provided you find the gun that fits your hands. Is there anyone around who happens to have a nice selection that you can test with? It’s all about the height of the barrel compared to the focal point of the force… have you considered adding a little something to the bottom of the gun to weigh it down a bit?

Personally, I can attest to the .45 being a lot smoother than you expect, but then again, it seems to naturally fit my hands. Other people may vary.

33

I haven’t shot with any Rugers so I can’t really give a comparison, but have you tried the Kahr K9? It’s a little smaller than the P89 you have, kicks a little but I find it controllable. I can get consistent double taps in the 10 ring at 25 ft. I thought the Walter PPK was just a little too small. Never bothered to shoot it though.
I wouldn’t worry about the caliber. I would shoot a .22 if they made a semi-auto in a size I could carry. I believe accuracy matters more than anything else wrt stopping an assailant.
I’ve owned a the Kimber classic .45 acp and HK USP compact in .45 and they were easier to handle than I expected but just too big to carry. I’m only 5’6" , 150 lbs.

34
      • Revolvers are recommended for home defense over semiautos, because revolvers are more reliable in such situations.
  • If your hands are small or you are put off by the 9mm noise, you can even go down to a 22WMR and still get a gun that’s a heck of a lot better than nothing. S&W and Taurus made 9-shot revolvers in 22WMR, I thinks, though many people are still boycotting S&W.
  • By the by, I have read in an article by Gary Kleck himself that that the first rule of a home-defense weapon is NEVER use custom-anything. Buy the gun new with no modifications, and DO NOT change anything on the gun, and DO NOT use anything but standard, ordinary, off-the-shelf ammunition – DO NOT use reloaded ammo. If you do any of these things and ever end up using it on a person, the other lawyer will portray your gun as one you “custom-built for shooting people” or “custom-loaded for shooting people”. It has happened countless times already, and it is extremely difficult to explain away in a courtroom.
    ~
35

If you MUST have an auto, then get the Beretta Cheetah.

It does not jam, and will shoot all types of 380 ammo, including the best hollow points. The Berreta Cheetah does not hardly kick at all. There is no other 380 as good as the Beretta Cheetah.

However, if you are not enamored with tv shows which constantly exclusively display autos, then get a .38 revolver. You can fire any type of ammo in it, depending on how much kick you want, anywere from wadcutters(no kick) to +P loads.

A good revolvers is inherently more reliable than any auto, because there are no feeding or ejection causes to jamming, and no problem with misfires either.

If you cant stop somebody with a .380 Beretta Cheetah, then your question is irrelevent.

36

(underlining in above quote mine)

radar ralfs whole post was “on target” for a defense gun, but he didn’t address the “non-serious target shooting” issue much.

The problem your having here, I think, is that your uses and expectations of the gun are in conflict:

“non-serious target purposes” would be a smaller caliber (less flash and recoil), longer barreled gun (more accuracy at distance).

“for defense/carry if need be” would be a heavy caliber (knock-down round for defense) and small, lighter gun w/short barrel (easy to carry and conceal).

You really need to get two guns. HOWEVER, for a solution with one gun, how about this?:

[ul][li]Get the gun you seem to want, the Beretta Cheetah .380, making sure that it fits your hand well and finding some way to shoot one first to try out the recoil, flash concern.[]Refering back to MrTuffPaws earlier post: For defense purposes, keep it loaded with the Glaser Safety Slugs that he cited. They are touted for being “safe” for not shooting through walls or ricocheting but when they hit a person they create a huge internal wound. This will make up for the power lost by going to the .380. As to DougCs post: Remember, the only reason you have them in the gun is the “safety” angle. Don’t ever say anything else.:smiley: []Lastly: Aside from the "concealed carry issue I still have to stick with the .38/.357 revolver as mentioned in my earlier thread.[/ul][/li]
I hope I’ve kept this “factual” enough to keep the mods happy.:slight_smile: Gun magazines are overflowing with articles on “What Is The Perfect Handgun”. You’ll hear lots of opinions.

PS Susanann’s post just came up while I was typing this. It’s also “on target”. But I do like the Glaser angle too.:slight_smile:

37

To handle the more IMHO aspects of this very multi-faceted question, I started a new thread in IMHO:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=194721

38

IMO, the Beretta cheetah with .380 winchester silvertips are probably much more effective in stopping an attacker than any “full case” 9 mm bullet.

The good thing about a Cheetah is that you can mix up your bullets, and intermix some fmj if for some reason you want deep penetration and the rest of your magazine containing winchester silvertip hollow points without fear of it jamming up.

Anyone shot 6 times with Beretta cheetah .380 winchester silvertips should not cause you any further trouble.

However, if you miss an attacker at close range, than you shouldnt be carrying any gun - you are a danger to society with your stray bullets possibly hitting an innocent bystander .

As far as “non serious target” shooting , you should get another gun, a .22 for target shooting. Something where you can pleasurably shoot 1500 rounds in an afternoon for less than 20 bucks.

39

At personal defence ranges and in PD situations, a .380 is fine. I love Berretas, and used to carry the .25 as a back-up. Great little gun, very accurate & reliable.

In the larger cities (like around here) many gun ranges will rent you a variety of pistols to try. I suggest going further afield and trying that option. If not buy the Cheetah.

You can try the Shotgun News, and they will send you a list of dealers in your area who will - for a small fee- order a gun for you from the SN- at near wholesale, and then handle the paperwork for you.

40

This bit is often repeated on gun boards - but I recall reading an argument once in which the asserting party was asked to find one single case in which the prosecution even used this approach, let alone succesful, and was unable to come up with one.

While it might be a reasonable precaution, to my knowledge, it hasn’t happened “countless times already”.