A few handgun questions

In My Humble Opinion
1

I am looking to purchase my first handgun.

First of all, here is what I have done already:
Taken a handgun safety course (required in MA)
Applied for and gotten the Class A large capacity firearms permit from my local police department.
I have experience shooting shotguns and rifles deer hunting. I own several, am comfortable with using them. I have secure gun storage in my home.

However, I have never owned my very own pistol. I have fired at the range a .357 magnum revolver, glock 17 9mm, .38 with both regular and +P ammo. I went to a place where you can rent them to get a feel for what I was talking about.

I am looking for a gun that I can carry hunting to finish off game. I would also like having it around for home defense. I am licensed to carry concealed, but because I am a big guy (6’3", 230 lbs) with big hands, I would rather have a larger gun that is comforable to grip. Expense and ease of finding ammo are concerns, but not huge ones, I won’t be shooting 1,000’s of rounds of ammo per year with this.

Ok, now on to the questions:

1. The size. I am curious as to what the order (in barrel size) is of all handguns. I can’t seem to come up with this basic information on the web. For instance, a 9mm is clearly a smaller gun than a .357. But, how much? Which is larger, a 10mm or a .40? I would love to see this all listed simply from smallest (.22?) to largest (.45?). Looking at ballistitcs charts, if a 10mm has 2X as much lbs/sq inch of pressure at 50 yards then a 9mm does that mean twice as much kick?

2. To Glock or not to Glock. I love the idea of the simplicity of Glocks, 25 moving parts instead of 125. I hate the idea of no button safety on them. I am leaning towards the full size glock 10mm. (It’s good enough for the Nuge according to his FAQ, LOL) Can anybody give some arguments for the 10mm vs the .40? I like them because they seem to be very middle of the road. A 9mm doesn’t seem to be enough stopping power, but I don’t need a desert eagle .50 either.

3. The Law. Massachussetts has lots of crazy gun laws. For instance, in order to be legal a handgun must still be in production currently. Anybody know how the law here works that can offer a summary of important things? I went to a store in NH and they basically told me I must get written proof from the manufacturer that a gun is still in production to buy it from them. I assume that if I went to a Mass gun store they would have only legal guns. But, if I buy something and it stops being in production next year, will it suddenly become illegal?

4. The 1911 .45. Is it worth the price? Message boards I have looked at show this model has many fans but I also notice lots of maintenance talk. I want it to work all the time without tinkering.

Any handgun owners that can answer one or all of these questions please do. Mod’s I know this is kind of pollish (not polish, resembling a poll) so feel free to move to IMHO.

2

I’m no expert but I do have several of the ones you’ve mentioned.

I got my S&W 357 with a short 4" barrell so I could put it in the glove box if I’m on remote sites along the border or in a carjack situation. Plenty of stopping power without going through an engine block.

I keep a Baretta .40 around the house in case of a robbery, etc. We’ve had an attempted home invasion before so it’s ready to go but DOES have the safety feature.

My FBI buddy said the department considered the .40 but went with the 10ml because of more stopping power.

I’ve also got a .45 in case rhinos ever attack but, as with my other revolver, keep no bullet in the chamber.

There’s plenty of knowledgable folks that’ll be along soon with more info.

3
  1. .40 is .4 of 1 inch which is approximatly the same size as a 10 mm, the barrel size refers to the size of the bullet (not cartrige, which is bullet and case). The power depends on how much powder just like a rifle.

So a .357 sig is smaller that a .40 but has as much power because it has a higher velocity and just as much powder. It is tricky.

  1. Yes Glocks are awsome, reliable etc … etc … the best saftey you have is your self. The gun will not go off on its own when dropped. There are many many great stories about this gun. If you are not comfortable with the no saftey then don’t buy the gun. Your comfort is important.

  2. NO IDEA … I live in Texas

  3. Depends on the gun, 1911 are nice esp if you get a high end one. The .45 is smooth and accuraty.

If you are looking a gun to carry and are willing to spend some money buy a Kimber. Although GLocks are great (I own a mid frame .40, and am 6’1 and it fits great). You will learn with carring conceled that sometimes you will choose a smaller gun for comfort reasons.

4

I can’t answer any questions specifically. But here’s my two cents.

I own a Ruger GP 100 .357 6". I’m a big guy and the gun is very comfortable to hold and shoot. For home defence I think I would prefer a 9mm or .45 for the capacity. However, I like the stopping and penetration of the .357, we regularly get black bears and sometimes cougar roming around the yard. Don’t worry, I have never shot one, but they have been know to break into homes.

For hunting, I think I would go with the .357. I think a revolver would take a little more abuse, and the .357 would work plenty well to finnish an animal off. You could even use .38 in it.

5

General Questions is for questions with factual answers. IMHO is for poll and such-like.

Off to IMHO.

DrMatrix - General Questions Moderator

6

First, you seem to epitomize the respectable gun owner and I commend you for your efforts to get the proper training and doing all applicable research. This helps make you a more educated consumer and hopefully a safer gun owner. I used to run a gun range and I can’t tell you how many idiots that came to the place who thought they knew it all. Thank you for not being like them.

#1 Don’t get too wrapped up in the whole physics thing. True kinetic energy is an important factor in determining recoil but so is a gun that fits properly. A 10mm that fits will have less perceived recoil than a .38 that doesn’t. As an analogy I have a .30-30 win and a 7MM mag. The 7MM fist well while the stock on the .30-30 it too short. I can shoot a whole box of 7MM and not be in too much pain, 5 rounds through the .30-30 is all I want in a day. The kinetic energy produced by these rounds is very different but it is gun fit that matters in this case.

I have very large hands and I own a S&W 442 - it is very hard to shoot so I don’t do it much but size is important for concealment so for me it is a trade-off. I practice as necessary to maintain proficiency but I don’t shoot it for fun. Figure out how you will use the gun - full-time deep conceal, occasional conceal, never conceal. This will help determine what firearm might best suit your needs.

#2 10MM and 40 are the same diameter, the 40 is a 10 casing that has been cut down. Go to a store that sells reloading supplies, you will find all sorts of charts that lay all of the bullet diameters, cartridge lengths, etc… (in more detail than you will probably want to know, trust me). Do some research using terms like “handgun reloading data” and you can probably get tons of info.

#5 (Three Sir!)

#4 Don’t confuse maintenance with customization. The 1911 has been around for a long time and has many readily available aftermarket parts. Many people choose to customize the gun because it can be done fairly inexpensively relative to other guns. I’m not really aware of any huge maintenance problems with the 1911. this is not a stab at your state, just an observation… If your state laws are draconian enough to mandate that the model is currently in production I would strongly advise checking in to the legality of any modifications (if you are thinking about the 1911 for this reason).

NP: Sentenced - The Cold White Light

7

The only one of these I’m qualified to answer is the last on the 1911. I have shot 1911s and Gold Cups in competition for nine years, and while the 1911 is a great gun, it wouldn’t be my first choice if I had it to do again.

The round is a little large for everyday shooting, and unless you’re in competition and have sponsorship, it can get expensive. (Or if you happen to have a family friend who runs a gun shop and will do cheap reloads, as was my case). It also takes regular care to keep them running well. Since I was shooting two to three matches a month as well as range every week, I estimate I fieldstripped the things twice to four times a month, with cleanings every time they were fired. I also didn’t have much of a life at this point, so this may not be for you.

Recoil can be detrimental to the enjoyment factor, and is probably one of the reasons I can’t shoot without braces today. The 1911 is a great sidearm, don’t get me wrong, but if you’re looking for a carry gun, the largest I’d go is .40 S&W or 10mm in an autoloader, and .38 in a revolver.

And for home defense, get a shotgun. Mossberg makes a very reasonable pump gun with a shortened barrel.

8

  1. Don’t judge performance strictly based on caliber as that can be extremely misleading. 9mm is only a thousandth or so smaller than .38 special/.357 magnum but the thee calibers are very different. .40S&W and 10mm are the same diameter but very different in terms of power. 10mm is not a caliber I’s steer you to. I personally favor .45 ACP in various forms.

  2. Try a Glock before you get one. They are terrific but not my cup of tea. Don’t let the lack of a manual safety keep you away though. It should be treated like any double action revolver and none of them have manual safeties. Lots of fools have ADs with Glocks but almost universally because they violate rule three.

  3. Move to Arizona or Vermont.

  4. See answer 2. I love 1911s but I do a lot of my own gunsmithing and customizing. It’s a good design but more complex than many newer guns and can sometimes take some tinkering to be 100% reliable.

Consider other guns. For personal defense I carry a Sig P245. It’s a compact, single stack, double action .45 ACP. It doesn’t have a manual safety per se, just a decocking lever. I’m also partial to the CZ-75 in the form of the excellent Italian Tanfoglio clone, imported as the EAA Witness. It’s a double stack so it’s big in the grip but holds 10 rounds in the standard magazine in .45 ACP. Double action but with a fame mounted safety so you can carry condition 1, cocked and locked, like a 1911 if you so choose. My 1911 is a Colt combat target model but heavily modified with an Ed Brown beavertail safety, custom sear and disconnector, etc. etc. I think it is unwise to carry a modified gun for defense so it’s primarily for the range.

Get a .22 You need to practice to be proficient. Practice a lot. That doesn’t mean a few hundred rounds that means many thousands of rounds. A good .22 is the only way most of us can afford it even if we reload. I like the Browning Buckmark though I’m still shopping for a vintage Hi Standard Victor.

9

I love my Buck. I think this is a very valid point. A good part of handgun safety and ownership is just beeing comfortable with a handgun. With the larger rounds, that can get pricey quick. Stopping power doesn’t mean a thing if you miss!

10

FWIW my buckmark is the standard model but I’ve replaced the rear sight with a Weigand scope mounting rail and mounted a BSA red dot sight. Makes it look a bit exotic but it’s proven to be an excellent pistol for beginners to learn with. For those that haven’t used one a red dot is an optical sight with no magnification and a superimposed red dot instead of a crosshair on the shooter’s view of the target. It does not project a red dot as a laser would. It’s training wheels, freeing the beginner from worrying about sight picture while concentrating on stance, grip, trigger squeeze and follow through. It’s a good balance of size and weight and been a comfortable fit for everyone that has shot it. Dopers Mauvaise and TheLadyLion both learned to shoot handguns with it and did extremely well. I may trade it for a target model which has a slightly heavier barrel plus a full length scope mounting rib in addition to iron sights.

11

Can’t really add anything that hasn’t been covered already except for one thing. You say you are interested in it’s use to be able to finish off game. CHECK YOUR HUNTING LAWS!!! In many states it is illegal to carry a pistol while carrying a rifle.

12
  1. a 9mm is pretty much the same size as a .357 (the difference is in thousandths of an inch), and all of the .38s, all of the 9mms, .357mag, .357 sig, .380, and probably some others I’m forgetting about fire a virtually identical bullet, though the cartridge size, powder charge/pressure, and cartridge style differ wildly. There’s actually a revolver (the medusa) that can safely fire all of those. While caliber names don’t necessarily match to sizes, the common calibers go something like .22LR, .25ACP, .32ACP, .38s and 9mms, .40 and 10mm, .41, .44mag/special, .45ACP/Colt, .454, .50AE. Firing a larger bullet doesn’t neccesarily mean more recoil or more power; a .357 has a higher velocity and greater recoil than a .45 ACP (and way more than .45 colt, which you’ll only see in cowboy guns), as does a .44mag.

There’s not a simple formula you can compute for recoil; while you could calculate out some kind of energy transfer, it’s not neccesarily going to tell you what you’re going to feel. The amount of energy going into the bullet is the biggest factor (a .22LR just isn’t going to kick more than a .44 magnum no matter what you do), but a few other things come into play. A heavier gun tends to reduce felt recoil (I wouldn’t fire one of those super-light .357s, but a Colt Python is pretty nice), it’s rare to see calibers like like .44mag, .50AE, or .454casull fired from anything but a long-barreled, heavy-frame gun. The action also makes a difference; semi-automatics use some of the recoil energy to chamber the next round, so they don’t kick as much. Fit of the grip and balance of the gun is also important; sometimes a particular gun just won’t fit right in your hand, or is weighted so that you hold it in a way that its uncomfortable to fire. Your best bet is to try out various guns to find what works for you.

  1. Glocks are very good guns, at least from what I’ve read on them (I don’t own one). If the lack of a manual safety bothers you, get something else, but accidental discharges can generally be traced to someone not being careful with pointing the gun and/or keeping their finger on the trigger. Revolvers and a number of double action pistols don’t have them, but a standard glock has a lighter trigger pull than some of them. Really, it’s not an accident waiting to happen but if it makes you nervous, there’s a big market out there.

As far as 10mm vs .40 S&W, they fire the same size bullet but the 10mm is much hotter. The FBI had trouble with less-trained agents using 10mm and eventually moved away from them, so I’d recommend trying one to see how you like the recoil. IIRC, a 10mm generally has worse recoil than a .45 and a .40 comprable, because while a .45 fires a larger slug, it fires it with significantly less velocity. From my readings on ‘stopping power’, 9mm/.38spec (in both cases using hollowpoints and +P ammunition) get the job done, but moving up to a .40 is certainly not going to hurt.

What you want to do is rent/borrow several guns and fire them to make sure you like the recoil. What’s more important than some mathematical analysis of ‘stopping power’ is whether you can fire the gun comfortably; if it’s not pleasant to fire, you won’t shoot it enough to stay proficient with it and won’t be able to hit anything anyway.

  1. http://www.nra-ila.org/GunLaws.asp?FormMode=Detail&R=MA has a basic summary of MA gun laws, but doesn’t detail the approval lists. Going to a local gunstore would be your best bet, since IIRC the lists are pretty odd and arbitrary. AFAIK the restrictions on ‘currently manufactured’ apply only to gunstore sales, so the manufacturer going out of business wouldn’t make your gun illegal. That doesn’t mean that your gun won’t suddenly become illegal, but that’s always a risk somewhere like MA. You really ought to be member of some sort of pro-gun organization to help keep that from happening.

  2. 1911s are good guns overall, and will work fine with normal maintenance (cleaning, replacing magazine springs when they wear out, etc.). What you’re seeing is people doing customization and tuning, getting the exact feel that they want or going for higher accuracy than out of the box (out of the box, most pistols don’t work well at 75 yards, for example). Since the 1911 is used by a lot of competitive shooters, there’s a lot of info on how to make them suitable for serious competition shooting.

13

I don’t have all the answers to your points, but I’ll put in my .02 on the matter.

I’m a big guy with big hands and I’ve owned about 10 different handguns and fired about 40 more of various shapes and sizes.

I ended up with an EAA 9mm. The 9mm rounds are cheap and you can buy them anywhere. The gun is plenty powerful for any of my needs. It holds 13 rounds.

I do enjoy shooting .45’s, but decided to not buy one because of the jump in bullet prices (almost $20 more around here for a box of 50).

I personally do NOT like the glocks. I’ve fired several different models and just didn’t like the way they felt. My friend loves his, but I prefer the weight of a metal gun myself.

14

A .357 wheel-gun with a 4-6" barrel seems to be a field gun mainstay, IMHO. Auto’s in the field tend to be a little more fussy, and since you state a prevalence for less maintenance, a revolver would definitely be your best bet.

Some manufacturer’s make the .357 (and I think one or two .40’s) in a seven shot revolver. Of course with some of their latest offerings, Ruger and Casull have .44 grizzly stoppers with 6" barrels (which is what I would carry in the northern part of the country).

15

Another vote for the Ruger GP-100 series of .357 Mags. I have had a Ruger GP-141 for years, and love it. I shoot .38 wadcutters at the range, and when I’m feeling rich, spring for a box or two of .357 magnums. Shooting two boxes of magnums can definitely leave you with an aching hand, however.

I also own a .44 Mag, but rarely touch it, unless I expect to be mugged by a finback whale or Cape buffalo.

  • Rick
16

Great info, everyone! Much more than I hoped for.

Couple of points:

I am in the NRA.

Good point, Turbo, but I just checked and it appears to be legal in MA, ME and NH to carry concealed as long as you are hunting. For the car ride there, however, you should leave it in the trunk. Just because I have a MA carry license, doesn’t mean I can carry in ME.

I have been unable to find a 10mm or a .45 to shoot. Thanks for the info on these.

Someone told me that a .357 should not be used to fire .38 ammo. The gun store salesman claimed that because the bullet is smaller the expanding gasses cause small damage to the gun every time it is fired. Is this true? Total BS? Wives tale?

17

The questions have been mostly answered several times over, but let me reenforce what BF said: If you’re looking for a field weapon for the purposes of finishing a wounded animal that can also be used as a carry weapon, I’d definately recomend a .357 Magnum wheel-gun. A clean kill really requires that you bring enough power to the animal, and not all combat handgun cartridges do that. A .357 Magnum can be fired quite safely with lower energy, lower-cost .38 Special ammo, and practice, practice, practice, PRACTICE, and still MORE practice is the key to effective handgun use. If you’re unfamilliar with handguns, the simplicty of a revolver is a plus. Once you’ve become comfortable with the basics, you may wish to investigate other weapons.

Now, don’t get me wrong: A .45ACP or a .38 Super, or a 10mm can all do the job too, but you will suffer the aditional cost associated with a semiautomatic handguns, and lose a bit of simplicity and verastility. I wouldn’t use anything less than the three above listed semi-auto cartridges on wild game, espcially not on wounded game, personally. YMMV

Padeye is entirely correct about getting a .22, in a similar style to your carry weapon. You shoot how you practice, and if you practice with a semi-auto, but carry a revolver, you’ll not do as well as if you had practiced with a revolver, and vice-versa.

Get yourself to the range, rent a few weapons, and see what suits you. And (my favorite song; let’s all sing it together!) Get Thee To The Range, And Practice, Practice, Practice!

18

With modern weapons, utter and complete Bullshit. The .38 Special fires quite handily from a .357 Magnum. The Magnum revolver is built to handle magnum loads. In what manner is the lighter, lower-powered .38 Special going to harm a weapon designed for the exact same bullet diameter (and often the exact same bullet), the exact same cartridge rim & case diameter, and much higher power levels…?

That salesman needs a swift kick in the ass.

19

Firing .38s through a .357 won’t blow the gun up or anything, but it does leave some crud in the cylinder as the .38 round is shorter than the .357 round. If you clean the gun regularly this won’t be a problem, but you can end up with a ring of crud that makes it hard to load .357s into the gun.

20

I thought that was BS about the .38s in a .357. It makes sense that crud builds up in there, but this “micro-fractures you can’t see” non-sense was just him trying to sound important.

OH, BTW, I found this interesting tid-bit from the NH laws page :

So, how do I go about finding out if MA and NH have a reciprocal privilege? Failing that, I will have to find out who the director of state police is.