Do you feel that you have to back down from people that can beat you up? Do you feel that people who you can beat up should back down from you? Do you feel that only people of approximately equal fighting abilities should respect each others opinions? Do you feel that people and their views deserve respect based on their ability to punch people?
It’s a darn shame life isn’t more laike a movie.
Don’t Call Me Shirley is spot on.
Bob Heinlein clearly had a blind stop when it came to Latin America, or post-colonial Africa.
Pistol duels are for nancy-boys. Now, back in the good old days of the Cold War, two men would face off at the slightest provocation with arsenals hundreds of strategic bombers and thousands of land- and sea-based intercontinental ballistic missiles with multiple independently-targeted reentry vehicle, each capable of reigning hellish death and destruction on millions of innocent people and rendering entire regions uninhabitable for hundreds of years, all costing a significant portion of the gross national product of the respective nations. The commie pinko bastards didn’t dare open their traps when faced with that kind of response. Now that’s good for society.
Fist fighting? That’s grade school psych-out bullshit! Laughable, man.
Stranger
snip.
Actually I was the victim of severe bullying throughout most of elementary and middle school. Being a artsy, intellectually inclined, and physically diminutive child, I was the natural target for nearly all of the other social groups. That bullying only ended when I made it clear that I would not take it any longer. I did indeed get my ass handed to me a few times, but it soon became apparent to the bullies that I was no longer an easy or fun target. I would fight back; that wasn’t as fun, nor anywhere near as safe for them. I make no pretenses about winning the respect of the bullies; they still hated me, but looked for fun elsewhere.
I don’t think that fighting is the cure for society’s ills, but I also maintain that our current overly protective climate isn’t the correct path either. The judicious use of force can ensure immediate results that other more circuitous paths cannot.
Wait…hang on. Who threw the first punch? Were you fighting back? Because self-defense is something that’s already okay in our culture.
Only after you’ve exhausted the options provided by placards, T-shirts with anti-whatever-it-is-you’re-protesting slogans on them, a whist drive, and finally a major- and I mean major- leaflet campaign.
I’m not sure why you referenced this article, because the first line in it proves my point.
Headline: “S. Hadley school’s officials faulted for not halting abuse before her suicide”
“Northwestern District Attorney Elizabeth Scheibel, who outlined the charges, also faulted officials at South Hadley High School, saying her investigation determined the girl’s harassment had been “common knowledge,’’…”
"…the accused students allegedly hounded her openly while other students and a teacher looked on. "
The reason this student died was because school officials weren’t doing their job, not because the tortured girl didn’t start a fist fight with 9 other students. Like I said, you have to try hard and find someone to help you in these situations. It might not happen next day, but I guarantee you this students path to death didn’t happen in a day either.
I also mentioned in my post that there are a million variations of these situations, and not all of them can be covered by one answer.
Technically, I did. After the typical progression of shoving, etc… I decided to take the initiative. Currently though, BOTH of us would be in equal trouble.
I dunno. Given the circumstances that might qualify as self-defense. Or it might not. It could be that fist-fighting worked for you. It certainly wouldn’t work for me.
BTW, I am totally in 100% agreement with you on Zero-Tolerance policies. PR disaster (especially students, who should be the last people to be taught that authority is bad), invitations to miscarriages of justice, and lazy as hell.
Not necessarily. There are legal options, not so legal actions, geographic options such as relocation – all manner of tools available. The hard part of adulthood, sometimes, is picking the right one for the situation.
The answer is “no” across the board. Sometimes you can learn or teach as much in losing (even badly) as you do winning, whether it be a basic brawl or a political campaign. Unless the person your fighting is an idiot. In which case you can still do it - it just takes longer.
I will qualify that last a little; “Do you feel that people and their views deserve respect based on their ability to punch people?” The long answer needs two parts.
A view no one is willing to fight for, physically battle for, is not one I am going to have much respect for. I can’t think of an example offhand but if someone manages to invent one I doubt I’ll be able to find much respect for it.
A person totally unwilling to punch someone is actually someone I have great respect for if they are actually living a non-violent, non-confrontational philosophy - some of the Old Orders come to mind. I have some respect for the Ghandi style of non-violence where you provoke others to physical action but that is more on a case-by-case basis. However if we’re talking the newer breed of “pacifist” who feels he can say or do as he pleases without the risk of physical harm, and who then acts shocked when his nose suddenly starts to bleed - him I don’t have much respect for at all.
Go back to my example that you were originally responded to. A man argues with you over some point you consider worth fighting for. You challenge him and the two of you have a fistfight.
Now, a woman argues with you over the exact same point. Do you challenge her to a fistfight to uphold your honor?
My guess is that your answer is going to be no. If so, than why does your honor survive an unchallenged argument from a woman but require you to challenge a man over the same point?
And if a woman knows that men won’t challenge her to fight for her views, will her views be respected? As you said “A view no one is willing to fight for, physically battle for, is not one I am going to have much respect for.” The result of such a belief is that no woman’s view can gain the same respect a man’s view will. A woman can’t have a view worth fighting for because no man will fight her for it.
Or the contridiction can be resolved by acknowledging that incompetents settle most issues in history.
So, the bullies quit bullying YOU, and found another target. As long as that target isn’t you, you think this is a good outcome?
I don’t. I do agree that if someone else starts the physical fight, then a person (adult or child) SHOULD be in the right to physically defend him/herself. But just deciding to have a fight is not the way for civilized people to settle a disagreement.
I also agree with this statement.
I’m not Acid Lamp but my response to this is “Yes, it is. Why wouldn’t it be?”
Good work.
I’m going to have to ponder this one. But, depending on the definition of “incompetent,” I just might agree with you.
Problem is you aren’t fourteen years old anymore. What adult disagreement do you envision would appropriately be resolved by a fistfight?
Boss: …and according to the projections, it looks like your team will be a little below target for sales this month, but I think with a little effort you guys should be able to catch up nex…
Jim from Sales: YOU sir have offended me with your sales projections! I will see you at 5:15 behind the loading dock where I project an ass kicking! Good day sir!
Boss: Yes, but kicking each other’s ass is not going to increase…
Jim from Sales: I SAID GOOD DAY SIR!!
I’m 47. Mature enough to no longer go looking for trouble, but wise enough to know when someone intends to start it. I tend to avoid places where fights are most likely to occur now - ie. anywhere where alcohol is imbibed as though it is going out of fashion - but there are still enough arseholes on the street to keep a person on their toes.
At the time you was growing out of fisticuffs and beginning to act like a grown up, I was just starting out as a football hooligan, so our life paths have differed significantly.
Your guess is probably very wrong. I believe in women in combat and full equality of the sexes. Lucky for me, that is what society says is correct for this time and place. Which means that no matter what plumbing you carry, I will be more than happy to poke a woman in the nose given the right situation. I add the slight caveat because I’ve never come up against some small little lady totally unable to defend herself - but I also haven’t come up against any men like that. I would be interested to do so just to see how I would react in that circumstance.
I will argue that fistfights, as outlined or defined in the OP and as I have discussed in this thread, are not about “honor”. They are more about social interaction and exchange. Honor is more the thing wars are made of; or on the interpersonal level “feuds”. Don’t confuse the two; although they can be related they can also be very different in form and practice.