Florida's Stand Your Ground law - good or bad law? Poorly understood?

Oh certainly a guy who you provoke doesn’t gain the right to kill you. But unless the altercation is on film, the guy who shot the victim doesn’t have to tell the police about his grabbing the other guy.

I can certainly see a possibility that Martin was harassed by Zimmerman and may have laid hands on him to keep him from running away. At that point, a reasonable person might punch the dude holding him. If at that point it’s a brawl, I don’t think that the instigator should get free pass to use deadly force to stop a fight he started.

If you start fights you’re going to get beat up once in awhile. A person shouldn’t start shooting as soon as he realizes he’s losing a fight he started. I can’t see where it’s reasonable to assume that Martin meant deadly harm. And certainly it warrants an investigation by police.

How so? Since when is grabbing someone’s arm unlawful?

In every crime, if the criminal lies about facts that would help convict him and there is no evidence of those facts that police can discover independently that will help the criminal avoid conviction.

Yeah, you keep saying that, but do you have any evidence that’s the case in Florida?

Here’s an analysis of Georgia’s very similar law:

Carlson is a nationally-respected authority on evidence and trial practice.

An honest question, then; what is the point of the law?

I live in Canada. I certainly can kill someone in self defense if my life was threatened, or if another person’s life was threatened. s.34 of the Criminal Code clearly gives a person the right to use force, up to killing another, if they have a reasonable apprehension of “death or grievous bodily harm,” e.g. being assaulted. The test is merely “reasonable belief” that you have to defend yourself.

So if SYG law just does that, why did they bother to pass it? I cannot imagine any jurisdiction in the world that descended from English common law that does not allow for the use of reasonable force in self defense.

So which is it? Either these sorts of ambiguous cases are so rare that they don’t pose much of a threat to the integrity of our justice system as a whole, or they are so common that police can’t send them all even to the Grand Jury for fear of swamping the system.

Depending on jurisdiction it would typically fall under assault or battery statutes.

I live in Virginia where we do not explicitly define assault and battery by statute, but just say:

That means it is defined by “common law.” A Virginia law firm explains:

In Florida, for quite some time now. It is the crime of battery; Title XLVI, Chapter 784.

Ah, here we go. I found it. Looks like you are right, Martin Hyde:

Montijo v. State of Florida.

It still seems to me it should be a jury question in the Martin case, not a matter for police discretion. There is plenty of evidence undercutting the self-defense claim.

And that is precisely the problem with FL’s SYG law, at least how it appears to be being followed in the Martin example, based on what’s currently known about the case. It makes it even more easy for criminals to do exactly that. How is that a good thing?

He’s misusing the term burden of proof by my reckoning. And also by the reckoning of the Federal public defender’s office:

In any case, I see no compelling reason to argue about terminology. It is generally the case if the defendant creates a scenario that creates a reasonable doubt, even if the prosecution creates 200 scenarios that create reasonable guilt, as long as that solitary reasonable doubt scenario exists then the jury will acquit.

We were working under a hypothetical in which “10,000 such cases had not resulted in conviction.”

Martin Hyde, your own cite seems to say that at a minimum a preponderance of evidence is required to support an affirmative defense. Which was what I said:

Whether you call that a burden of proof or a burden of production appears to me to be merely a semantic question. The defendant does have a burden to present evidence in support of his defense.

I don’t think the expert you quoted was wrong, I think he was just being loose with the term burden of proof. He was only semantically wrong, but his point wasn’t invalid.

The quote from the Federal criminal defenders is notable because it contends the primary goal when producing an affirmative defense is to secure a jury instruction from a judge, meaning the court has accepted to some degree the premise that the affirmative defense is at least something the jury needs to consider in their deliberations.

I think that is probably true from a perspective of trial tactics, if the last thing the jury is left with is a jury instruction from the judge explaining how they must acquit if they found the defendant’s self defense claim reasonable will probably impact significantly their deliberations.

However even sans any jury instructions, if a jury believes your alternative is reasonable and the prosecution has done nothing to undermine that, a proper jury will acquit.

Right, I think we agree on the semantic nature of the proof vs. production argument.

As to the preponderance of the evidence specifically, that closest I think you get to any objective measure of that is whether or not a judge proffers jury instructions on how to consider an affirmative defense. Of course the rules on giving jury instructions probably (certainly) varies in each of the fifty states. It’s not inconceivable in some States you can get a jury instructions on an affirmative defense claim even if the court believes the affirmative claim is totally without merit (but I have no idea.)

The technical legal “flow” seems to be:

  1. Establish your defense
  2. Sustain it in the face of prosecution attempts to undermine
  3. Secure acquittal

But I think the way a jury actually works is:

  1. Hears prosecution’s theory.
  2. Hears defense claim of self defense
  3. Hears any rebuttals.
  4. Makes a decision based on which story they believe.

A jury isn’t necessarily going to informally say “alright, let’s first decide if the self defense claim has merit, if it does, we need to decide if the prosecution disproved it.” If the prosecution has disproven the self defense claim, the jury will just convict outright in most cases. If the self defense claim sounds reasonable and some portion of the jury believes it, they will acquit or fail to reach a verdict.

Don’t put words in my mouth. I think his word should be heard, but it should be questioned.

Fact: Zimmerman did not initiate contact with Martin in order to stop a crime. Contact doesn’t have to be physical. Zimmerman clearly made his presence known to Martin based on Z’s 911 call, resulting in Martin fleeing. After this, we know that Z follows M to some extent. The police should have questioned Z’s motives. A kid walking down the street with a hoodie on is not the same as a prowler peeking in a window and hiding behind bushes.

Fact: Martin was unarmed. The police should have questioned Z’s need to use deadly force against an unarmed person.

Fact: Z had minor injuries. With what we know, these injuries seem inconsistant with the threat of being beaten to death by Martin.

Those facts alone should have brought the claim of self defense into question and led the police to treat the case differently (at least as far as we know) from the getgo. No, not necessarily immediate arrest, but at least given closer scrutiny than it appears was initially given. Maybe tougher questioning or checking to make sure he wasn’t under the influence of anything. We also have a witness who says she heard the kid yell out, yet we have the cop telling her no it was Zimmerman. How does he know this? Oh yeah, that’s what Zimmerman told him. WTF!

That hypothetical was proposed as a reason why police should use discretion in these self-defense cases and not bring charges. But if these things are really very rare, how can that be the case?

In a very real case in the OP where a violent righteous nutjob chased and stabbed to death a petty thief, stealing car radios, the stand your ground statute does protect that behaviour.

Its a terrible law. It lets people get away with murder, literally.

Unfortunately, those of us who are sane are not going to take advantage of it. That’s the problem with being smarter than idiots, the idiots will do anything they can get away with to achieve their goals but the rest of us wouldn’t, giving them a bit of an advantage in the stupidity department

The text of the law says otherwise. All it does is mean the prosecution cannot secure a conviction just by demonstrating the defendant had the ability to easily flee.