It’s pure reaction to calmly reload a gun with your back turned to a threat?
I may not have been clear so I want to point out that I wasn’t talking about deterrence. I meant that, say here and now, someone is being robbed. If they pull out a gun and kill the robber then they survive. And in every here and now more robbery victims will survive because they killed the robber. Or at least incapacitated him.
They could wait and see if hopefully he’ll just leave after he’s collected the goods. But what if he doesn’t? What if he decides to go ahead and shoot them? Then they lost out on their chance to survive.
In a high stress world where you were just robbed at gunpoint, multiple threats are present, your head is ringing from firing a gun indoors, and realizing that you might have just killed a man. I think it is easy to think that perhaps one’s judgment might be slightly impaired. I give him a break on turning his back to a threat.
Sorry, I’m reading this and have no idea what you are trying to say. Please try again.
Don’t feel sorry for him, some things transcend the law of the land.
And I did propose my own question. Care to answer?
And it’s up to the vigilante, not the people who actually live in that land, to define those things eh?
So that’s a yes, you do support vigilantism and the killing of George Tiller.
No. I do see the point. Imagine how bad it would be to defend yourself and then have your mercy backfire when a wounded criminal surprises you. I really have no idea what I would do. I would hope I would have the presence of mind to not kill unnecessarily and not be foolhardy with mercy. I don’t own a gun so I can understand if I swung a bat a pipe or a knife in defense I’d want to make sure they were unable to hurt me or anyone else. I would hope my first priority would be defending myself and my loved ones and showing mercy to an attacker once I’m sure that’s done.
That’s what gives me pause watching the video. It seems the merchant has successfully protected himself , his property,and his employees. He appears to be unconcerned about the downed robber as a serious threat and still shoots him five times at close range. It may be understandable rage in the heat of a gun battle but it doesn’t seem like self defense.
Sneaky edit:p
It sounds horrible, but how many people actually get those? Dr. Tiller wasn’t murdered over third trimester abortions, but because he performed abortions at all.
If you don’t agree with a law it’s up to you to either convince the necessary majority to change that law, or let society live with the rules it chooses.
Stop me if I’m reading you wrong, but are you saying it’s understandable, or conceivable if you will to maybe shoot a guy 5 times because you’re shocked by the sudden realization you might have just killed him ?
Dude, that’s even loopier than *my *reasonings.
I never disagreed with that, Bo. It’s just what Monty was calling vigilanteism seemed to include the first shot as well. I don’t see the second series of shots getting ‘a lot of support’. Just the first one.
Well, I can’t disagree with that at all, Monty. I can think about the 40 shots the cops fired at Abner Louima, and conclude that some weird shit happens in combat situations, and maybe this guy has a defense. (Especially since it’s Oklahoma. In Texas, I’m pretty sure he’d be scot-free, Oklahoma’s laws are similar but not the same.)
But generally, I’m not really seeing support here for the next five, just the first one.
Edit: Yes, Monty, you were confusing at least one thing, you were confusing me. And I’m going to stick with that. 
I do believe wholeheartedly in what you are saying.
But third trimester abortions are atrocious. And he was performing them. After 21 weeks is what is recorded.
Why do you need to mischaracterize what he said? He stated his case plainly. He doesn’t feel sorry for the death of a murderer. That doesn’t mean he thinks that vigilantes should be able to flaunt the law of the land.
There is simply no reason to twist his words in this case. You can hate his opinions with righteous indignation as they stand without putting words into his mouth.
I fail to see how armed robbers are not clear cut villains.
Well he became a victim when he was incapacitated and shot to death. That doesn’t make Ersland a villain. At worst Ersland is an anti-hero. But in all fairness I’ll concede that an armed robber is a clear cut villain, but that he can still be a victim.
I see. I was responding to another poster who said robbers should see every robbery as a death sentence, and thinking of possible effects of more people defending themselves with guns.
If people decide to defend themselves with a gun I hope they take the time to target practice and take a gun safety course.
It’s also possible that in pulling a gun in self defense you escalate the situation and increase your own chances of being shot as well as anyone else. What if the merchant had missed and instead he was the one with a bullet in the head? I don’t know of any statistics on that and in general support people defending themselves.
I always heard quoted that citizens who are likely to pull a gun to defend themselves are generally better shots than either criminals or police because they are more likely to be gun enthusiasts and take their gun to the range regularly.
I bet SenorBeef would be the best person to answer this question.
I think if the kid is a victim he’s a victim of the bastard who talked them into the robbery. My son got involved with an adult who taught teens how to shoplift convincing them they wouldn’t face any severe punishment if caught. He served as their fence.
Didn’t someone mention others being arrested. A get away driver and someone who planned it. I’m thinking there’s an adult in there who got this kid killed other than the merchant.
Let’s all take another look at the video. Starting from the point where the robber is downed (and out of frame) the shop owner doesn’t even spare a glace his way. You wouldn’t have a clue that anyone was there until he bent down to shoot him.
He walked right past this dangerous, gun toting robber, turned his back to him and walked, in full view, to pick up his other gun, looking down into the drawer to check it or load it or whatever, then walked to within a couple of feet to pump more bullets into him.
I wouldn’t bat an eye if he put 10 bullets into him at the start, but you leave, turn your back, don’t even look at him while walking past, you no longer get to pull out the self defense card.
Unfortunately not everyone should carry a gun. Some people just aren’t capable of handling one. And the consequences could be devastating. Hopefully those of us that do might be around when those people are in danger.