Except society doesn’t entirely disagree with you. For example, screening of high risk mothers for a fetus with Down’s Syndrome is routine in our society, and it’s almost expect that if detected such a fetus will be aborted unless the parents are right-to-life. That is, in fact, eugenics. It’s not called eugenics by most people, but that’s what it is.
[Quote=curlcoat]
I think it was your link that said their fingers were fused together? By more than skin then?
[/quote]
Fused skin but also fused bone, missing bone, deformed bone… no, it’s not fixable. Surgery might be performed to make their hands and feet more functional, but no, it’s not correctable.
For the past few centuries observers have marveled that people with this condition are still remarkably adept – things like handwriting, sewing, manipulation of tools, etc. are no worse than that with normal people. As I said, the main problems seem to be societal attitudes, wearing rings, wearing gloves, playing certain musical instruments, and finding a shoe that fits a deformed foot. As disabilities go that’s not too bad. It’s still not normal, and anyone with the syndrome has a 50% chance of passing it to his/her offspring.
Yes.
Yes.
All true.
So they can get into the Dor Yeshorum database. If you aren’t in the database the gene-checking of prospective mates in much more difficult. It should be fairly obvious that the system works best when it’s easiest to use.
It depends on what your goals are. For some, simply avoiding manifestations of a genetic disorder the goal. For others, nothing less than the elimination of the bad gene itself will do.
Personally, I find the latter attitude unacceptable both because of how many people it would lock out of having children, and because in some cases the “bad” gene in a half-dose is actually more beneficial than not having it at all. The best known example is the sickle-cell trait: carriers have significantly improved resistance to malaria. Since malaria still kills millions of people every year, and causes both short and long term disability in millions of others, in malaria-prone parts of the world it still might be a good idea to maximize carriers if we can avoid people getting a double-dose as carriers are healthier in that environment than non-carriers.
There is some evidence that Tay Sachs carriers have improved resistance to tuberculosis, and carriers of Cystic Fibrosis have improved resistance to diarrhea inducing types of diseases, both of which conditions also used to kill millions yearly and are still serious problems in some places. The evidence for this is nowhere near as strong as for sickle-cell/malaria, but it does make me think that we shouldn’t be too hasty about eliminating “bad” genes before we really understand how they came to be so common in some populations.
And this gets back to allergies in that, as mentioned some pages again, people who are prone to allergies also seem more resistant to parasites and their effects, and also seem less likely to have certain types of cancers. Are the beneficial effects something we want to reduce or increase?
More and more we seem to find that some genes are good or bad only in an environmental context. For something even more common – dark skin is protective near the equator but greatly increases one’s risk of vitamin D deficiency near the poles, which is linked to rickets, osteoporosis, and susceptibility to both depression and certain cancers. On the flip side, pale skin is good thing near the poles as it facilitates vitamin D production with minimal sunlight which is good for bone health and various other things, but near the equator puts you at risk of skin cancer and folate deficiency (and folate deficiency in women is a risk for neural tube defects which aren’t genetic but environmental defects which range from asymptomatic to catastrophic). Is a particular skin color good or bad? It all depends on where you live.
Here’s the problem:
If a mutt is healthy you imply it is riddled with hidden defects. If it’s not healthy you automatically assume it’s a genetic problem and not environment. If a purebred dog is healthy you imply it’s because the dog has clean genes. If the purebred isn’t healthy you say it must be badly bred. That all-over No True Scotman’s Fallacy and that why you come across as an idiot to many.
Yes, they do. Healthy dogs can get infected cuts and scrapes. They can get food poisoning. Both humans and dogs can get hookworms and pass them back and forth. Samonella is another one humans and dogs can share back and forth. Leptospirosis, MRSA, strep throat, ringworm, roundworm and scabies are more of the same. Please, you were looking intelligent for awhile there, don’t ruin it by saying something as stupid as healthy dogs can’t get sick.
Maybe someone should come up with an acceptable word then, since folks like gamerunknown can’t seem to understand any of the benefits.
Ah, so the Dor Yeshorum won’t accept results from outside labs, but they also won’t allow that person to retest? Seems to be defeating their purpose.
Those people don’t understand how genetics work. For one thing, unless you tested everyone who ended up having kids, you couldn’t eliminate even a simple recessive. And the bigger issue, by cutting out a bunch of “breeding stock” because they carried a gene for X, it is quite likely you are going to end up with a population who carry for problem Y for which there is no test. I can see how people would like to be able to eliminate all testable negative recessives so they can “breed with” whoever they want, but it isn’t really possible and is likely to cause even more problems.
This is something we have been aware of in dogs for a very long time, beginning with simple things like heavy coats are an advantage in the frozen north, but could kill a dog in the tropics. Short legs are an advantage in a breed used to chase prey underground, long legs are needed to run down fast prey. Flexible tendons make for better agility but can lead to joint problems. Etc. As dogs become more and more “just pets”, traits for their original jobs can be a problem for them depending on where and how they live.
It would be idiotic if I’d said anything like that, but I haven’t. Regarding the mutts, what I have said is you can’t know what it’s genetic health potential is because there is no record of the dogs behind it. Mutts don’t come with pedigrees full of registered names you can look up to see if they had any health checks and what the results were. To claim that any random mutt must be healthier than any purebred is illogical for that reason, and because it would be highly unusual for that mutt to have had any health checks if it hasn’t been showing symptoms. You wouldn’t know if a mutt was dysplastic unless it started limping young, you wouldn’t know if a mutt had a genetic eye problem unless it went blind young, etc.
In purebreds you (usually, should) get a pedigree of registered dogs, but if the pup was bred in a puppy mill, the pedigree could be a lie. This is one of the major reasons why the puppy mills have set up their own registries and have quit using the AKC, because the AKC kept pulling registrations on dogs proven to have bad pedigrees. Plus, puppy mills can’t be bothered to do any health checks since they cut into the profit margin, but at least with a pedigree a potential buyer can see that these checks hadn’t been done on the puppy’s ancestors.
The reason this is important is because many if not most of the genetic ills that dogs can get are not inherited thru a simple recessive, but thru a combination of genes (which may or may not be affected by environment). Hip dysplasia is one of those and studies have shown that the way to eliminate it from a line is to x-ray everything and only breed from those dogs who not only have Good to Excellent hips themselves, but also come from litters who had at the very least the breed average number of siblings who also x-rayed clean. A pedigree with better than average depth for clean hips will not only be less likely to produce pups with hip dysplasia, those who do end up with it will be lesser affected by it
So, your well bred purebred is going to have a pedigree with good depth & breadth for clean health checks, making it much less likely it is going to end up with any genetic ills, and if a pup does, it will be lesser affected than the garbage bred in puppy mills.
OK, “bugs” meant viruses to me but anyway…It is possible for a healthy dog to get an infection in a cut/scrape but not likely. My dogs do advanced field events where they are crashing thru bushes and running thru cacti, yet I cannot remember ever having to treat a simple cut/scrape. Yes, they can get food poisoning, but it takes quite a bit more exposure than it does in humans due to the way their digestive systems are set up. Same with samonella, tho a dog can carry for that without becoming sick and pass it on to a human. Healthy adult dogs generally (pretty much never) don’t get hookworms because the larva become dormant unless/until the dog gets pregnant or seriously ill. Same with rounds.
As for the rest of those things (except strep - I’ve never heard of that in dogs) yeah they can happen but it would be very rare and isn’t what you were talking about when you said your sister’s dogs routinely caught “bugs going around”.
Really, it doesn’t work to call me stupid about dogs. This is what I do, and have been doing for decades. I spend 10’s of thousands of dollars on dogs every year. I am surrounded by it at almost all times. If you think I’ve said something stupid, either you misunderstood me, or what you believe is wrong.
Really. I think it’s pretty damn stupid that, in response to Broomstick, you said:
If you really think that she said that, then you must be stupid. She never said that any random mutt must be healthier than any purebred. At most, she was saying there are scientific studies to show that on average, mutts may be prone to less genetic defects than the purebreds. On average. And you have yet to post any actual scientific evidence to rebut this argument - you just continue to post anecdotes and dog show posters of individual dogs and the “truthiness” you know from personal experience.
It’s the curlcoat show because it’s yet another example of you hijacking the shit of out a thread to make it all about you (bonus points if you can make it all about you, and your obsession with dogs and/or dislike of children).
If you can link to a post where Broomstick actually said that “any random mutt must be healthier than any purebred” or a very close paraphrase of that, then I will retract what I said. Not holding my breath.
So you’re not actually presenting anything to refute what I said? Just declaring it by fiat to be stupid? If you think I’m wrong and that you have posted links to any scientific evidence about genetics and dog breeding, please correct me. Not just arguments you’ve made based on your personal experience, but links to actual evidence. Here, someone had posted titles of studies in peer-reviewed veterinary journals, which you dismissed because you thought they were lying, and that you wanted a direct link to the study so you could review it. Earlier in the thread when someone else someone else said they had a Masters in Genetics, you saidthat you had no reason to believe them, so why should we take your claims of expertise at face value? You’ve also dismissed others’ arguments when not accompanied by a cite (see the end of this post), so I think it’s only fair to ask the same from you - back up your arguments with scientific cites.
You’ve only made four cites in three posts in this thread, none of which are scientific and compelling to back up what you’re saying:[ul][li]Here, you posted this link to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, but not linking to any particular page or information, just their search page.[/li][li]Here, you posted this link to a dog show ad for one particular German Shepard that won an agility competition. [/li][*]Here, you posted a link to a definition of “hybrid”, and a linkto an old painting of a pug.[/ul]
Waenara, you are not interesting enough to waste time on, since all you can do is act like an ass, demanding things that the people actually involved in the discussion didn’t need. If your only purpose here is to blame me for things that aren’t my fault, any further posts you make will just be you talking to yourself.
Actually, all the objections I posted about you holding others to a higher standard of evidence than you use yourself were previously made by others in this thread, but you either ignored them or handwaved them away. I hoped that if I pointed that out then you might make a substantial rebuttal or present evidence, but if you want to ignore my points then that’s up to you.
Things that aren’t your fault? Your inability to post cites is somehow beyond your control? Your accusing others of saying things they did not say is not your fault?
I initially posted earlier in this thread and exchanged some interesting and completely civil posts with your regarding food allergies. I only posted again when you stated that Broomstick said something she did not say, and I had hoped that you could respond and actually point out why you think she said that. Instead, you’ve ignoring the actual points I made in favor of name calling and avoiding the issue. If you choose not to respond to any posts asking for cites, then hopefully this thread can just die.
Waenara is right in regards to what I did or didn’t say and curlcoat is wrong, just in any there is anyone else still interested. But that’s what **curlcoat **does when backed into a corner: call other people stupid and fail to back up her claims.