DMC, wouldn’t a lot of the seafood in New Orleans come from the bayou? (I don’t know if they’d have lobster or shrimp, but surely there’d be something for all those cajun dishes like gumbo and jambalaya.)
Thanks This Year’s Model, but it’s just little SQL queries (that unfortunately take a while to run, as the tables are huge, and not necessarily indexed in a manner optimized for the queries I ran for this thread). I just happen to work with lots of this sort of data on a daily basis. If I knew your credit card number, there’s a pretty good likelihood I could tell you what you bought last month, if you use credit cards, not that I would ever do that. 
I’m trying really hard to stay out of the political aspects of this issue, so as not to lower the perceived credibility of the data, but I’ll admit it’s difficult. If I slip up, let me know.
I’m pretty sure the shrimp and some of the crab does, but I think they ship their lobster in. It’s still not terribly expensive there, as it’s a seafood town, so the fish markets probably get much larger quantities than other cities of similar size.
When I was running IT for the grocery chain, it was actually a midwest chain, so I’m not as familiar with the vendors in New Orleans. My current job is “cross-retailer”, but I’m not really allowed to give info about which chains, etc.
LookingForward:
I know who lives in those crappy little pay-by-the-week motels because I’ve been to them. I’ve talked to the residents, surveyed them, and informed them about options available to them (pre-MEOG cuts). I know people who have lived in them. Visit one someday. Your eyes will be opened.
I’m having a really hard time finding the page (I can’t even remember if it’s in class notes or a text) of how many single parents aren’t receiving child support, but the following stats should back up my assertion:
As of 1997 (I’m sure I could find more current cites but I’m going with the one at my elbow), 22% of children under 4 were living in poverty; 21% of children ages 5-9 were living in poverty; 18% of children 10-14 were living in poverty; 17% of children 15-19 were living in poverty. For comparison, the stats for people 45-49 was 7% and for over 85, 16%. I’m pulling these numbers from p. 13 of The Developing Person Through the Life Span by Kathleen Stassen Berger, who in turn pulled the numbers from the US Census Bureau. In FY 2002 88.3% of people on TANF were single, separated, divorced, or widowed.
Horse’s mouth. A woman I know in the Hennepin County CPS can’t send her clients to the programs that put her through college because they no longer exist. The “attend college while on welfare” bit was swept out with the Welfare Reform Act and the other programs were cut when Pawlenty did away with MEOG.
Weirddave:
- It’s not all about you. :rolleyes:
- I don’t care what reasons you give. Limiting consumer choice based on nothing more than ‘they don’t deserve it’ smacks of sanctimonious do-goodism. They’re going to receive the same amount of money each and every month whether they buy lobster, filet mignon, or ground meat product. It’s up to them to budget, not you.
I can assure you, since I’ve lived in Denver, you won’t find “fresh” seafood on it, and it has nothing to do with the cost. I stick to a couple of restaurants that have the money to get it really fresh. Honestly, Weirddave’s dinner menu is not far off from mine. But as I posted earlier, I know about nutrition from when I was a kid.
Hmmm. Just for kicks, I just ran the calculator for Indiana and found out that I don’t qualify for food stamps. Then I ran it again, trying to see if I would qualify if I lived without a partner’s income to consider, and I still don’t qualify. I guess I’m over the limit because I receive child support, because my income last year was under $12K and I have four kids. In other words, I think I’d have to be flippin’ destitute to get food stamps.
I’m not complaining, but I do know this much: I gotta make more money, which means getting a different job, going to school for a technical degree, and then getting a better job. So I’ll need to pay for school and probably will need daycare at least part of the time, and we’ll probably need a second junker. Which, in turn, means…less income for the next two years, unless I can manage to work nearly full-time while I go to school nearly full-time.
The logistics are a nightmare, and I’m not even ON foodstamps. I can’t imagine trying to figure this out with decreasing benefits for every buck I earn, etc.
DocCathode, I’m sorry you’re in such a tough spot. I don’t think anyone here would include you among those taking undue advantage of the system. I will keep you in my thoughts and I hope things get better for you.
tdn:
You continue to tell me what my opinion of the poor is. I repeat: Fuck you, you lowlife scumbag lying sack of shit. I have not shared my opinion. You have not asked. It cannot reasonably be inferred from what I have shared here. It is not germaine to the discussion. It does not affect the truth of lack thereof of my arguments.
You are being an asshole so take your wink smilely and stick it up your ass.
Furthermore, you are total fucking idiot. Are you truly trying to point out that $5 worth of lobster costs $5? Is this your fucking insight? You act as if this is a thoughtful or salient observation pregnant with meaning. It isn’t. You’re a dope.
He’s buying stuff on sale. I only have an issue with the meat: a pound of hamburg at that price is at most 80/20, so you only get .8 pound of cooked meat; and the chicken at that price most likely is not trimmed well, you’re going to lose weight there too.
But one has to know how to do this sort of planning, it’s not instinctive.
As they are not responsible for earning the money, it is not up to them to budget it. We already have placed controls over it; food stamps are used for food, for example. We do not allow the purchase of porno videos with food stamps; under your logic, we should, since it is not up to us to control how the money is used.
Furthermore, it is well within my right to suggest that if the poor can afford, through government subsidies, items that most middle class families do not buy or buy in heavy moderation, then perhaps the poor should be given even less money from government subsidies. Hey, choose whatever you want, but if you choose something that suggests you are living better than someone who is actually paying for that something through tax dollars, you don’t get the money.
I also like how this thread has moved to statements about how the poor shouldn’t have to suffer. Once again, I’m not sure what planet you are from where the inability to consume twinkies, steak, and lobster constitutes suffering. I cannot afford a yacht; perhaps the government should give me the money for one, lest I suffer.
What choices would those be? Many of the Soviet immigrants in my neighborhood are on foodstamps (Their degrees are worthless in the US. Their field may be different here, and English is a difficult language to learn). I have never seen one of them swipe an EBT card and walk out with caviar. However, due to those Soviets who are working the neighborhood market sells a vast array of caviar, canned and fresh.
So exactly what level of destitution do you insist on? What foods should not be covered? How would you enforce that?
Binarydrone:
You’ve asked an excellent question. How would I design an effective relief system?
First off, releif would need to seperate components. Component A would be permanent disability. People will qualify for component A when do to physical or mental disability they are chronically unable to provide for themselves. People in component A would be given the means to live with dignity according to their abilities. They would be continually evaluated on a semiannual basis to be sure theat the benefits they are getting are appropriate based on their functionality. Many people who are unable to provide themselves are also incapable of caring for themselves, and some may need total care in all aspects of their life.
Component B would be people who require acute asisstance but are otherwise physically and mentally capable of providing for themselves and their dependants (if any.)
The hardest part in providing temporary aid is in removing it. If you remove the aid as people are improving their circumstances they see no net gain in their circumstances though they are working very hard. There is no incentive. Right now the only control we proffer is the stick. If you don’t get off after a certain amount of time we will reduce or cutoff your benefits. That is a badly designed system. Their has to be an incentive to work harder.
Under my system application to component B will require an evaluation by more three different and unconnected evaluators. They will not attempt to make any recommendations but only seek to create a realistic representation of that party’s current circumstances. The three evaluations will take place within a week and represent basically an audit of that person’s financial circumstances and cash flow.
A committee will reveiw these three different evaluations and decide if aid is appropriate. If aid is appropriate another committee will decide on a package of aid tailored to the circumstances. It may be minor or it may be sweeping. The package is designed to give the person the means to get off the aid by the time the package has ended.
The different committees and evaluators get paid and promoted based on their success ratios. There is a lot of monitoring and counseling. Demands may be made of the people receiving the benefits as a condition of aid.
That package is then instituted and that is that.
If the package fails to work there is a reevaluation and in certain circumstances an extension package may be offered.
If that package then fails the person requesting aid must attend “boot camp” as a condition of aid.
The intent of boot camp is to catch the people who have been given the means to support themselves but have repeatedly failed to do so. Basically they give up their posessions, their right to choose where they live, their right to control their economics. It is like the military without rank. Instead of being trained how to be soldiers, they are trained how to work, manage themselves and their money. Boot camp is a commitment like the military. They graduate by demonstrating they can take care of themselves. This is for people that don’t know how.
It will be unpleasant and difficult and a fallback of last resort. Think of it as a halfway house if you don’t like the sound of “boot camp.”
So, let’s take and example or two:
Joe Johnson supports a family of four as an auto worker. The plant closes and the job market is saturated. He cannot find work. He spends down his savings and applies for aid.
Joe Johnson is evaluated by three seperate unconected evaluators. They find that Joe Johnson is a responsible working class citizen with no history of spending problems who has simply fallen on hard times.
The first committee decides that he is a good candidate for aid. The second committee decides that Joe Johnson would probably do very well if he could retrain for another job while keeping his family afloat. He is assigned a package that will fulfill this need and a counselor to help implement it. Joe meets with the counselor who is cognizant of the job market and together they discuss Joe’s qualifications and desires as it relates to potential jobs. Joe likes working with his hands and thinks he could be a pretty good mechanic. His counselor says that their is currently a need for qualified electricians in his area. The government enrolls in a technical course that trains and helps place qualified electricians. He and his family recieve food stamps, monetary aid and basic medical benefits to cover the time Joe will need in retraining and finding a job.
Joe does this and the aid package carries him through.
The counselor and the committee have a success on their tick sheet at each step of the process finalizing a year after aid has ended and Joe is continually solvent and on his feet. Joe also evaluates the aid process. This is his government, too and his success makes any criticism he has to offer the process particularly valid.
I learned a little bit more about EBT limits tonight at Wal-Mart.
I was in line behind a woman who was buying a shitload of Valentine’s candy. I’m talking the good stuff; bags of Hershey’s Kisses wrapped in cutesy little white and red foil, etc. Specially marked stuff. There was so much of it that the cashier had to use two plastic bags to bag it.
The total was 66 something, minus 2 something that the EBT card wouldn’t cover (non food stuff, I assume). She was buying other things too, I didn’t look closely but judging from the amount of candy it probably cost about $30 or so. As she swiped her card, the cashier warned her that EBT “might not pay for the candy.”
Apparently this past Christmas, EBT wouldn’t cover Christmas candy, and also wouldn’t during Halloween. If you were to buy just a plain regular bag of candy, it would cover it. However, apparently if the candy was specially marked for a specific holiday, it would be declined.
At any rate, the transaction was approved. Why the state of WV would allow people to buy Valentine’s candy but nix Christmas and Halloween is beyond me. The point of me telling you guys this is that yes, Virginia, apparently states can exert some control over what can be bought with food stamps, although, as in the grand tradition of the government, the rules make absolutely no sense, are arbitrary and, chances are, don’t do anyone any good.
DocCathode, pardon me if this is out of line, but is it harder to find kosher foods with food stamps? (I know you wouldn’t be buying lobster, for example!) BTW, hang in there-you know we’ve got your back.
Again-what’s peasant food to some people is gourmet cuisine to another. It all depends on the area. DMC mentioned N’awlins, where I would assume shrimp and crawfish is probably standard fare. If one lives on Cape Cod, you could probably get some lobster pretty cheaply. Clams, most definitely.
We knew that from the beginning. WIC covers only certain foods and only certain sizes of those foods.
Abbie You show a fine understanding of our government’s welfare programs.
Nope. All my favorites are covered. Most foods in the average American supermarket are kosher. On those rare occasions when I do buy a kosher specialty item (jar of gefilte fish, some blintzes, hummus etc) it’s always covered. In general, any food item not made in the store is covered. Philadelphia being filled with Jews, it’s not difficult to find kosher food.
How do you figure? It looked perfectly reasonable to me. 
You know, I did that whole “go back to school and retrain” bit, albeit on my employer’s money, not the government’s. Here’s what happened.
When I first went to college, I got a degree in Japanese and set out to be an interpreter and translator. I was a reasonably good one and wound up spending several years in Hawaii. When I got tired of living paycheck-to-paycheck, I moved back home and made a fresh start, doing clerical work at first. Because I like working with computers and I’m good at them and I knew there wasn’t much market for Japanese translators in Pittsburgh, I emphasized my computer skills. When an employer I’d been temping for full-time for 13 months made me a full-time employee and said they’d pay educational benefits, I went for it. When they laid me off a few years later, I was a few months from getting my Associates degree in Computer Science and was able to find work almost immediately as a software developer. I also finished my degree so I had paper as well as real-world credentials. That was in 1998.
In 2001, the tech economy crashed. I was working on a project for our HR department so I knew we were getting hundreds of resumes for entry-level training jobs. In 2002, I was laid off again. I was out of work for 7 months in all. After 5 months, I realized I couldn’t count on finding work in the computer industry, so I went back to my fallback skills and took a clerical job. Even so, that took 2 months. Folks, I’m not a slacker. I kept my resume up to date, went through the Sunday paper ruthlessly, went to the job center at the main library frequently, took temp work and even went to a support group for unemployed Christians, although that was a bust*. I knew what I was up against, having seen resumes from people with Masters degrees and 10 years experience sending in resumes for jobs as trainers, but I was determined to try and, when push came to shove, I was determined to survive.
Here’s my point. Job training isn’t worth a dime if the job a person has trained for doesn’t exist. I can’t tell you how frustrated I’d get when I read about retraining being the ultimate solution. I’d done that and wasn’t getting anywhere.
I’ve got a lot of pride and stubborness. I have collected unemployment, and a free government-run mental health clinic in Hawaii saved my life and made it possible for me to be the responsible, tax-paying citizen I am. I’ll also be honest – one of the worst things about unemployment was the boredom! How do you think my post count got so high?!
On the other hand, telling someone to just do something when they don’t have a clue how to go about it doesn’t work all that well. I’ve read people say that poor people should cook more nutritious meals. Folks, I’m a lousy cook. Seriously. I managed to give myself a slight case of food poisoning with a pork chop this fall! :eek: I can read a recipe and get good results about 3/4 of the time, but if a recipe says to use a 12 inch skillet and I don’t have one, I don’t know what to do. Don’t just tell people to cook nutritious meals; show them how to do so. No, it isn’t simple, at least not for me, although I can tell you how to write a really simple, cool routine which will tell you exactly which items someone has picked in a multiselect list box and dump the information out in a form which will fit a SQL query!
I’ve been at the bottom. Forget having a car; for years, I didn’t have a telephone because I couldn’t afford one. I’ve also been desperate. I haven’t used food stamps; going to the unemployment office in Hawaii when I was without work at one point was bad enough. I also know I have resources others don’t have, in part because of what my parents taught me. Other people’s parents weren’t as good. I’d say educate, don’t berate.
CJ
Woah. Kick back with the rage, dude. I already apologized for putting words in your mouth, but maybe I didn’t make it clear enough. I’m sorry I put words in you mouth. Better?
However, one can make a reasonable assumption of your attitude from the words you’ve already posted, and my interpretation is that you seem to have complete contempt for the poor. If this interpretation is incorrect, please feel free to illuminate me. I humbly request that you do so without calling me a “lowlife scumbag lying sack of shit.”
You might want to consider the vast benefits of decaf.
Yes. It’s an exceedingly simple concept, yet one that seems to be beyond the grasp of many in this thread. If I’m a “total fucking idiot” for pointing it out, what does that say about the people who can’t understand it? And you seem to be one of those people.
Consider the egotism involved in assuming that when people “can’t understand” your brilliant argument, that the problem absolutely must reside with the listener and not the arguer.
I do not “understand” your argument in that I can read the english language, but your argument makes little to no sense to me. I am sure, however, that this is because I am blazingly stupid, not because there may be some flaws, or at least counterpoints, with respect to your argument.
Let me restate it then.
$5 worth of lobster costs $5. $5 worth of rolled oats costs $5. No matter which of those two choices a poor person makes, the cost on his EBT card is still $5. Therefore, from a taxpayer perspective, it matters not one whit whether the poor person bought lobster or rolled oats. Perhaps this is obvious to all (it should be), but people are still bellowing about how the buying of lobster is ripping off taxpayers. I have yet to see even one no-choicer acknowledge that the taxpayer is not affected by choices made by the EBT user. It would be a real treat to see even one person give even lip service to the concept.