The DNC doesn’t know what its doing. What 's wrong with an orgy of front loaded primaries. doesn’t seem to be any problem for the Republicans.
And something else I just learned from Diogenes. The state of Florida shelled out 25 million dollars to help there people select delegates for Denver. Didn’t cost the DNC anything. Since when does the person who pays the piper not get to call the tune? Since when does a private organization tell a state how to spend there money?
Clinton doesn’t need Florida to win. She can win with super delegates/backroom machinations which the party allowed for the last time they revised convention delegate selection
Reversing their illegitimate call would be admitting they made a mistake. There’s nothing wrong with admitting a mistake. To be fair, the DNC should pay for their mistake, put up the 25 million to hold Florida’s redo primary and welcome Florida and Michigan back into the convention.
This anology is so out in left field that I can’t even get a handle on it to respond.
As has been pointed out to you on other threads, the Florida democrats unanimously supported this. Did the GOP force them to go along with it?
That’s an interesting thought - that this is automatically reprehensible. In a system of blind party allegiance, I can see why you think that way. But the idea to me that a particular individual winning the election is important rather just anyone who happens to be from the same party doesn’t strike me as illogical. They may not feel that HRC would make a good president.
While I regret what has happened to MI and FL, I agree with others that it would be worse to change the rules in the middle of the game.
If they leave MI and FL out, then it’s an enforcement of an agreed-upon rule and shows that the party sticks to its guns; if they have a do-over, it’s flip-flopping and the Republicans can tell America that if the Democrats can’t even decide on how to run a fair primary, why should they be running the country?
DNC Bigwig: So, have you explained to Tennsyltucky that they can’t move the 2012 primary back to October 2011? DNC Minion: Yeah, but all they did was reschedule it to the first of the month. DNC Bigwig: The first of the month? DNC Minion: Yeah. At least, that’s what I think the hand gesture from the state party chief means…
Agreed. In Michigan, there was a fair amount of resistance to this idea in spite of the higher ups insisting that it was a great idea. :rolleyes: Now essentially the people are being punished by having their votes discounted. That really doesn’t sit right with me.
Settled: Howard Dean said on National Television this morning in a resounding voice - No, the FL and MI delegates will NOT be sat under the current circumstances. They will get an appeal to the committee in JULY. That’s it. Watch it on GMA. The live feed will be posted on their website in a few minutes.
Them’s fightin’ words! One is the jewel of the Great Lakes, the other is the armpit of America where the only good thing that comes out of it is I-75 into Michigan. Electorally, they are somewhat similar. NAFTA is a major issue in both states. Michigan is I think a touch more liberal than Ohio and has been a much more reliable Democratic presidential state than our southern neighbors.
I was surprised to see the concern about a do-over. The DNC said you can’t schedule a primary before Super Tuesday and have it count without permission. Thus, in the eyes of the DNC, it never officially happened because it wasn’t sanctioned. It really wouldn’t be a do-over, it would be voting a contested election for the first time. Clinton supporters, note this. In the Michigan primary, , the vote in Wayne County (Detroit area) was 81,649 for Hillary, 75,227 for uncommitted. In Washtenaw County (Ann Arbor) it was 12,282 for Hillary, 12,992 for uncommitted. Don’t give us any crap about how she “won” the state when she barely beat uncommitted in the largest county and lost to uncommitted in another significant county.
Anybody who thinks a do-over would satisfy anybody is fooling themselves. No matter what decision is made, people are going to find a reason to bitch about it. A do-over would just result in a slightly different group of people crying foul over a slightly different set of issues.
It’s a bunch of lawyers fighting over huge stakes. There is absolutely no way in hell you could come up with any scenario that will make everyone happy and not leave someone with a legitimate gripe about being cheated.
I know that I’ve said this in another thread, but sorry to inform you - neither the American government nor any of the states are direct democracies. You vote in representatives and are bound by what they do on your behalf. Even if it is dumb-ass stupid and hurts you. If it is fair to have me bound by laws passed by Congress and punished for disobeying them, then it is fair to hold the voters of MI and FL responsible to the actions of their representatives as well.
I have no problem with Florida and Michigan having DNC sanctioned votes that would count. What they had so far were not and were in effect very expensive public opinion polls. Nice but polls have been wrong so often this cycle.
I highly doubt it will happen. The states will balk at paying for primaries after they paid that much for the pubic opinion polls. Clinton’s camp will be deathly afraid of caucuses, which the state parties along with the DNC and maybe with a little from the states could afford to fund.
This re-do idea is not something cooked up in the last month, it’s been around from Day 1, and both candidates should support it, if the funding can be found.
And a series of Caucuses is exactly what Clinton will want to avoid…And Obama would love.
I say do it. But from the looks of what Howard Dean said this morning, It’s looking more grim for anything to be done.
I agree. That’s why I think the primaries as they stand now shouldn’t count. I was replying to the idea that Michigan and Florida have had their chance and shouldn’t be allowed to redo their primaries if they wish.
And I live in Michigan. Nearly everything our representatives do is dumb-ass stupid and hurts us.
From someone who so vocally defended the Supreme Court’s nullification of the Florida election rules, not so long ago as to be forgotten around these parts …
So all those tens of thousands of people really did come out in the freezing weather to vote for “I don’t know and I don’t care”? :dubious: Or were those “uncommitted” votes, the bulk of them anyway, really intended for real candidates, perhaps?
What would be fair is if Florida scheduled their primary after February 4th like 46 other states. I am pretty sure that California would have loved to have their primary first in the nation, same with New York and Texas but the DNC said “if you do that, then your votes won’t count.”
So now Flroida and Michigan’s votes don’t count. Personally I support a do-over to seat half the delegates but if the state (or the state DNC) pays for it and admits that they were wrong, then I guess I don’t have a problem with full a full delegation from these states (I might support it more if the culprits wore duncecaps until the next election).
What would be fair is if the DNC didn’t have special rules for “special states”. As you said, four states held their contests before Feb. 4th, but only two were stripped of their delegates.
Also, everyone keeps talking about the rules, about how everyone knew the rules that Michigan and Florida wouldn’t count, etc., but there was always the chance that they would. There could even be a floor vote at the convention to seat these delegates. Howard Dean isn’t the final arbiter on this. If a candidate took the chance of abandoning one of these primaries on the chance that they wouldn’t count, then he did so at his own peril.
I also can’t believe that the GOP hasn’t pounced on this obvious irony here. In 2000, just because there wasn’t an arduous hand count of ballots from people who couldn’t be bothered to push a perforated piece of paper out of a ballot, this amounted to being “disenfranchised”.
In 2007, when the DNC ignores the results of an ENTIRE PRIMARY in a WHOLE STATE, then it is the “rule of law”… LOLOL
A primary is part of a party’s process to choose delegates that help decide upon the party’s candidate for office.
If a state has a vote that they know is outside that process then they are not having a primary; they are having a public opinion poll. The fact that Michigan and Florida decided to run very expensive public opinion polls and have decided to not run primaries this year is their problem. It’s a damn shame, but their choice.
There is still time for them to pony up and run primaries or caucuses if they want.
