I’ve flushed many a Trojan down the toilet (therefore avoiding conception) and my wife has had an ectopic (tubal) pregnancy that was wanted but that had to be aborted to save the mother’s life, which was quite tragic.
HUGE DIFFERENCE.
I’m pro-choice. But IMO, the death of growing baby inside it’s mother’s womb is a tragic situation. Intentional or un-intentional. Comparing the growing baby to the contents of used condom is unconsciencable IMO.
Having to perform any operation isn’t ideal… abortion are just more so.
An ex-GF of mine had an abortion… she seems quite fine now. No great trauma.
I disagree. I am an honest person and I believe that an embryo is just a mass of cells. And an embryo is what gets aborted 88% of the time, not a fetus, although anti-choicers like to muddle the issue by calling an embryo a fetus.
Agreed. (Pro-choice here as well).
I think it’s a graduated curve: A miscarriage is less tragic than a stillbirth, which is less tragic than crib death which is less tragic etc etc. Any cessation of life represents tragedy of some sort; the degree of our reaction is in our familiarity and our empathy.
To me, the tragedy is that pregnancy in our country is avoidable to a great extent (rape, incest, etc obviously not included) which would render a lot of this debate of only academic interest. It is baffling to me that many of the folks who are adamantly pro-life are also adamantly against birth control and sex education. We have only to look at literature through the ages to realize that abstinence only works for those who choose it of their own free will. Or if you were as much of a geek as I was in High School…
I also think that there is still a lot of stigma associated with being an unwed mother. And a lot associated with a mother who would put her child up for adoption. JMO, but I think that those who would point fingers are also those who would rather force the mother to bear and raise here child rather than allow her to terminate the pregnancy.
In short, I think that the restrictive attitude of the most vocal pro-lifers (against birth control, sex education, sexual freedom) may be a factor in a woman feeling that abortion is the only answer.
I don’t think that any pro-choice advocates are *glad * that women have abortions, but they (I, anyway) are at least glad and determined that it remain an option.
You do realize that considering the aborted a clump of cells a baby also just your opinion, right?
We pro-choicers have been accused by some pro-lifers of being glad that some women (poor women, black women, et cetera) have abortions. That’s simply not true, at least not of any pro-choicer that I know.
I’m prepared to say I’m glad that some women have had abortions, in light of the theory that the general legalization of abortion in the U.S. in the seventies led to a drop of crime in the nineties.
That said, I wouldn’t consider forcing anyone to have an abortion just to get this effect, lest anyone start accusing me of such a conclusion.
[NitPick] Pro-life is a loaded term. It implies (as it was intended to do) that those who do not agree with are deathmongers, murderers, etc. I think we should make a concerted effort to use the term anti-choice. Much less emotional spin that way.
[/NitPick]
JustAnotherGeek, the reasoning you put in a spoiler box is almost identical to mine. I don’t think you’re nearly as much in the minority as you think you are. Then again, I’m a geek myself.
I think abortion is wrong and I’d love to see a day when there are no more abortions. That said, I’ll fight as hard as anyone on this message board to keep it legal. Sometimes, there are no good alternatives, and abortion may be the least bad. I believe abortion is morally wrong and I hope I’m never in the position where I need to consider having one. That said, three years ago when I was laid off with few job prospects in sight, if I’d become pregnant and the father of the child was in a position to agree (note: rapists are, by my definition, not in a position to agree), I would have had an abortion. I didn’t have the financial or emotional resources, and I probably didn’t have the physical resources to carry a child to term.
I don’t know when life begins. I know I get fed up with people who would ban or who have refused to distribute the birth control pill or the morning after pill or Depo-Provera because they might cause an abortion. There’s no scientific evidence of that, although it’s a theoretical possibility. On the other hand, there’s a theoretical possibility with hard numbers behind it that a pregnant woman might get into an auto accident while driving to work or the grocery store which would result in her having a miscarriage and not carrying her child to term. It seems to me the same logic that says birth control pills might prevent a fertilized egg from implanting, thus causing an abortion also says that a routine drive might result in an auto accident, thus causing a miscarriage or abortion. Should pregnant women not be allowed to ride in cars?
I’ve lived my life as morally and sensibly as I can. So far, it’s paid off. If things go wrong, if, instead of having my knee go bad on me a couple of months ago, I’d found out that the birth control I’ve been using failed, I don’t think it’s the government’s job to interfere in my decisions about my health. I care a great deal about the sanctity of life. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t have started a support group for people with depression and fretted when I feared I might lose someone. I find it offensive that some people would call me a “murderer” because I give some thought to the circumstances of the woman carrying a child, of the mother, as well as the child itself. I haven’t wanted to be a parent because I was emotionally abused as a child and I don’t want to do to my child what was done to me. I don’t want my child to have the scars I do. If I find myself with an unwanted pregnancy and it’s feasible to carry the child to term and put him or her up for adoption, then that’s certainly my first choice. If it isn’t, then I will, if necessary have an abortion and I don’t see how it’s the government’s or some person who fancies him- or herself morally superior to me to force me to.
I consider cruelty to be always morally wrong. Does that give me the right to impose my morality on everyone else in this country? I don’t think so.
I stand where I do because I know I’ve been dead fortunate in this life, despite everything, and I will speak for and defend those who don’t have it so good, including those faced with an awful choice. It’s hard to break the habit of a lifetime.
Respectfully,
CJ
Thanks to all who have responded. As I expected many of the comments are basically your standard issue abortion debate stuff, which is fine except that I’m trying to get at something more specific here. As with the other abortion thread I started, I am not particularly interested in anyone’s position on abortion* per se*. I am more interested in whether or not your position is logically sound and philosophically consistent. Let me put this in a more basic format. Here we have five possible ways of looking at the status of the fetus/embryo and one’s attitude about abortion:
- The fetus/embryo != human being; therefore abortion != tragedy. This is Revtim’s position.
- The fetus/embryo = human being; therefore abortion = tragedy. This is the (putative) position of most pro-lifers.
- The fetus/embryo != human being; yet abortion = tragedy. This is Hillary Clinton’s position.
- The fetus/embryo = human being; yet abortion != tragedy. Is anyone making this case?
- Fetus/embryo is sort of like a human being; it’s more human than a sperm or egg by itself but less so than a real baby; so abortion is, if not a tragedy, at the very least something you want to avoid.
Positions one and two are straightforward and really don’t need to be justified. Reasonable people can come to different conclusions about whether or not the embryo is a human life, and once that is done the second part follows. (JustAnotherGeek, your college professor was right.) Position 5, while sort of muddy, does make sense. It’s position 3 & 4 that I find hard to reconcile.
Do you mean ‘Is there anything inherently tragic about abortion?’ I don’t think so.
If a couple (or a woman) wants to have a baby, but feel they are forced to have an abortion by circumstances - inability to afford a child, sickness or illness or danger to the mother or any number of other things - that could be tragic.
If a woman has an aborton because she doesn’t want a child at the time? I think “tragedy” is far too extreme a word. Regrettable, maybe, but an abortion in that case is performing the function a contraceptive would have performed if it was used or had worked. I imagine even an early abortion is very hard on a woman, even if she never contemplated having the child.
An abortion is a medical procedure, so I don’t think it is tragic or wonderful in and of itself. Like other hard decisions, like terminating life-prolonging care, I’m sure it’s never easy. But it’s infinitely preferable to have the option to exercise it.
I can only respond as a woman on this issue and not suggesting my gender gives any more or less insight how abortion is represented to women.
I’m also making generalizations as well, but consider this.
Most single moms will say how hard it is to have a baby and raise it alone, but they do not regret their child or the joy they bring in spite of the difficulty. They don’t regret their child.
Ask a woman about an abortion it’s not always the case that they are happy with the decision and site that they regret an abortion.
That’s not a preference for pro-life, but for some it is tragic, b/c the decision to have an abortion, can also be a fear-based decision that is made at the time, b/c you like resources or awareness on the ability to raise a child.
How mothers regret having a child versus the number of women that regret having an abortion could be behind “tragic.”
Some women have been raped and that kind of intrusion w/ another instrusive procedure like abortion is tragic. The risk that a uterus is pierced during the proceudre and makes it difficult to conceive later is tragic.
I’m speculating and generalizing, but it’s the best I can offer on why a woman would use a word to describe ______. It’s a subjective question.
El Zagna, I’ll answer on two levels:
First off is the fact that the majoriity of Prochoicers are not pro-abortion. They just recognize the lack of black and white here. They merely want to let the individual decide with braod leeway, even if they disagree with the choice. Hence the safe affordable and rare.
Secondly is a point that is contained in the first, and a problem with many logical constructs. The need to make sharp edged definitions where none can really exist. Despite bad old jokes*, and the proclamations of some of particular faiths, there is no moment that the ghost inhabits the machine. When is it uniquely human? Some of us accept that those equations cannot apply.
*I know the Jewish one: A priest, a minister and a rabbi wer ebated when does life begin. “At conception!” states the priest. “When the fetus might possibly be maintained outside the womb.” says the minister. “When the kids move out and the dog dies.” sighs the rabbi.
I think it depends on the situation. There is a huge difference between someone having an abortion at the fifth week because whatever means of birth control she used failed and someone that deeply wanted a child but could not carry the fetus for full term because it was a great risk to her life. In the first case, the tradegy is lesser, perhaps almost nonexistant, perhaps not. In the other case, it truly is tragic, for the mother, the father, the family, whatever.
I have only met on pro-choice person that was actually pro-abortion. The one time that I was stupid enough to have a conversation with her about it, it degerated into a shouting match rather quickly. And I’m vehemently, passionately pro-choice. I liked the way my roommate put it about the issue: I’m pro-choice because I’m pro-life. ie, we don’t want any of our friends to die from botched, back room abortions.
I also like this thread a lot, as it is the first debate on abortion I’ve ever seen that separated out the legality from the morality (or something) of it.
Pro-choice people that I know, find the situation to need an abortion terrible, but they are also concerned for the already born, to see the hundreds of born babies slowly dying of starvation in Niger and such places is as bad as abortion, or worse; many people who claim to be pro-life are really just pro-birth, they want children to be brought into the world and then forget that it takes time, money, patience, health care,love etc. to raise a child to adulthood, throwing a few pennies at the problem doesn’t solve anything, because there is a possibility of abortion the Bush administration stopped helping with birth control which would mean less starving people in Africa and less need for abortion.
In some cases(since we cannot read the heart or mind of a woman) abortion can be an act of self defense.
No one wants to pay taxes, or take the time to help an already burdened parent with raising their children. Until such a time I will say: to me most people who would forbid a woman from having an abortion are only pro birth, not pro life. Life began eons ago, there is life(human life in a man’s sperm,Life being a passed on thing from anscestor to anscestor to the present day. When they spend as much time worrying about the unborn and start worrying about the already born then I will believe they are truly pro-life.
Monavis
RE: #4
Well genetically, of course, the fetus/embryo/ball o’ bits is human. But it has even less self-cognizance than a dog and those we kill for our own good. However, I don’t think you’re going to find anyone who doesn’t agree that a fetus is genetically a human regardless of what side of the fence they are on–so separating #1 & #4 really no makes sense by these terms.
So, that pretty much just leaves people who think that mankind is a curse upon this planet and any human death is good. …I don’t think such a person hangs about on this board.
For three, I’ll have you go back to couples experiencing infertility. Certainly a child that hasn’t even been concieved is not a human being, and yet, people mourn for the potential human being. People mourn for their pets. They mourn for broken up marriages and paths in life they never took. Someone does not need to die for there to be a tragic event.
On four, I can only say that not all people value human life equally. Some value it, but feel that quality is more important than quantity (I have a friend who holds this position on abortion). Even the people who do value human life, don’t value each one with the same value. My child is far more precious to me than some unknown person living halfway across the world. Very often, this “differently valued” thing haunts the pro-life movement by comments such as monavis’ - a birth is important, but it seems to be less important to make sure the child doesn’t starve than making sure it was born in the first place. (i.e. not supporting forgien aid for birth control/abortion in countries with significant childhood mortality)
I imagine there’s some emotional baggage when it comes to becoming pregnant. When we find out someone is having a child most of us don’t wait until the third tri-mester to get all excited about it. I think a lot of women and even men can form strong emotional attachments to a fetus that’s only a few weeks old.
Marc
I guess I would fall into #5. I’m very liberal and very pro-choice. But at this point in my life, it would be rare circumstances that would lead me to have an abortion. We are trying to have a child at this point, so that is not an option to me unless I found out the to-be child has major physiological damage.
That said, I have had an abortion. I was 19, in college, and to put it bluntly . . . fucking around. I was seeing a good guy, a pre-med student, but he had no interest in me other than a fuck-buddy. Maybe if we were in love, I might have wanted things to turn out differently, but I still doubt it.
I had credit card debt out my ass, I could barely pay rent (and I had a roommate) and utilities, I had no real support system in place, and I was just trying to get my career started. It was the right decision for me and I (like most women who have abortions) have no regrets.
Yes, it was tragic. Even though I made up my mind the moment I saw the two lines on the stick. I felt like I was a failure, that I was stupid and made a stupid mistake, that now I’d have to go through this painful procedure (and god, was it painful! It’s horrible.) that I couldn’t afford. The humiliation and secrecy in this was sometimes overwhelming. Dissappointing my grandfather, who wanted to have a great-grandchild desperately, was probably the hardest thing. But I can’t be a baby-making machine for someone else’s desires. It wouldn’t have been fair to the child if I brought him/her into this world and I know after those 40 weeks I wouldn’t have been able to choose adoption.
I see pregnancy as a gradual evolution into a child and my own personal belief is that until late into the 2nd trimester, it’s still developing into a human. My test is that if it cannot survive outside of the womb, it is not fully human yet. I would never stand in the way of someone’s CHOICE, to either have the child, abort it, or put it up for adoption. That is their life that they need to make decisions about and something that should be between them, their spiritual needs, and their conscience. I have enough to worry about rather than what some stranger is doing. It’s not my life.
At this point in my life, I want to have a child. It’s where my life has led me. 8 years ago, no matter what decidion I made, it would have been tragic.