Those of us who are neither married, nor lonely, nor sad, hope you have a happy life. But please do not assume that everybody else wants what you want. It would be a very boring world if we did.
I’ve been wanting to vent for a while too. It’s somewhat cathartic to finally let it out. And I am, well pleased wouldn’t be the right word, but thankful – I guess – that I’m not alone in this.
Thanks for the responses - there seem to be a lot of hard choices for those with kids and ‘indifferent’ spouses, while those in happy or horrendous marriages can stick or split, respectively.
And maybe child-rearing will always be something of a wild stab in the dark - given a choice between the economic and domestic stability of an imperfect marriage, or the gamble-for-happiness of a ‘broken home’, who’s to say which would turn out for the best in the end.
At least our kids will have message boards to spill their trauma on to when they grow up… 
I don’t assume that at all; and to all the people who can survive happily without romantic love within the context of their marriage, I give my respect.
To those who can’t, I offer my sympathy.
The indifference is the worst part. If it was truly awful would be an easier decision for me.
That is the million dollar question. I would pay a lot for a crystal ball to view the future so that I know what is the right thing for me to do.
Indifference…that’s a landmine. I think many therapists would tell you that indifference/neglect would be the WORST form of abuse. If someone hates you, at least they care something about you.
My background: divorced from someone who was indifferent, no kids.
I’d first ask myself if all counseling avenues have been exhausted. Marriage counselor, clergy, etc. may help and if you’re out of your head with depression, maybe it doesn’t occur to you to take this step. I’d say I was like that. But I also know it was tinged with “She’ll never agree to go.”
BTW for you economically-disadvantaged dopers out there, you might look up the Catholics in your local area. I myself am not Catholic but I did hang out with them…I played in the church choir, for instance. But I know they have a support network and many if not all of the services, like peer counseling, are not reserved for just Catholics.
I was a peer counselor for them, in fact. I used to get distressed calls from people who always wanted advice right then. I explained that we set up appointments and explore the issues, so they agreed but never showed up. My conclusion: they were panicked and the next day they decided against it. But I felt like I wanted to help them, even if I only had a five-minute phone call to accomplish something, so I came up with this.
“Think of someone you love very much, someone who is the same gender as you. Now, imagine that person calls you one day and says, ‘I have a problem.’ They start describing their problem and you realize, ‘This is EXACTLY what’s happening to me!’ What advice would you give that loved one?”
About 90% of the time, they’d say things like, “I’d kick him out. He’s a bastard. She deserves better than that!” Then I’d say, “So what are you going to do?” They’d say, “I’m going to stay.”
If this sounds like you, then you don’t know what co-dependence is and you need to read up on it. If you can’t treat yourself—love yourself—as well as your best friend, you have problems that will undermine you. I can’t overstate that.
But, back to marriage counseling. I did ask my then-bride to go to counseling, knowing that even if she declined, I asked. I didn’t want to look back and think there was something I could have done that might have helped. Maybe she was just as miserable and…? Or maybe it wouldn’t fix the whole marriage, but there would be some relief and I’ll take what I can get.
I went to marriage counseling (alone) for a year. :smack: The benefit from this: I had help in deciding whether I should end the marriage or not.
My hunch is that most of the people posting here should get divorces. I don’t mean to be too negative, so I’ll explain why. See what you think.
You probably don’t know where you really are, emotionally. It’s like my vision. I used to have really good eyesight but a recent doctor visit confirmed that I could wear glasses. The parallel: the emotional losses can be so gradual over time that you don’t notice. You become resigned to it, a joyless existence, so much so that you can’t remember that life is supposed to be a hell of a lot better than this. A lot of guys (me included) “wake up” when they find themselves having an affair—with someone who gives a flying fuck about you as a human being. Denial only gets you so far; biology and the survival instinct will kick in, sooner or later.
Are you really there for your kids? I know you must try your best, but what do you have to give them when you yourself are ground to a nub? My brother has two special needs kids and he said to me one day, “They don’t know much about the world, really, and that’s okay. But it would kill me if I thought my kids were unhappy.” Let’s turn that around: how do you think your kids feel about you being unhappy?
And unfortunately—maybe this is the best reason for divorcing—kids learn from you. A lot of people stick around to show their kids that you can’t be a quitter etc. and I get that. But they learn vicariously, and they learn more from what you DO than what you SAY.
Extreme example: Daddy comes home from work every night and beats mommy. 1) The little boy witnessing this may grow up thinking that’s normal, that this is how men are supposed to treat women, and 2) the little girl grows up thinking that this is expected, that women are for hitting. It’s “normal” to them—aren’t all households like this?
Your example: married men and women aren’t supposed to be loving, caring, decent people to each other. Don’t be surprised if their marriages end up looking like yours. I know you want better for your children.
More of my thoughts later…if anybody wants.
Cite? 
I think, honestly, that the idea we’ve gotten in our heads that life is supposed to be like a beer commercial has really screwed us up. Life isn’t “supposed to be” anything at all besides procreation and death. We’re not “supposed to be” happy all the time, nor sad all the time, nor anything at all. We can all find joy where we find it, and be incredibly grateful for it when we do find it because it’s a gift. A gift from God, perhaps, or from other people, but a gift. It is not a given. And it’s teaching people that they’re supposed to be happy all the time that has so many of us depressed, medicated (through pharmaceuticals, alcohol or addiction) and striking out at one another.
Your great-grandmother (not to mention most people living in second and third world countries today) would laugh her ass off to hear that she’s “supposed to be” anything other than a wife and mother who gets her goats milked and the harvest in on time and her kids married off when they’re old enough. Did she have moments of happiness and laughter? Absolutely. But they certainly weren’t what life was about.
It’s precisely those who discard vows they chose to make because they’re indifferent that I reserve my ire for. What is that teaching the kids? That when things get boring, you give up? That people are only worth sticking around as long as they amuse you? That your happiness is more important than theirs and can’t be achieved any other way than by breaking up their home?
If you don’t have kids, that’s a whole 'nother story. I have absolutely zero problem with divorce of consenting adults without kids for any reason, or no reason at all (although I’d really like that “'till death do we part” bit stricken from standard marriage vows, 'cause I am a bit of a stickler for keeping one’s word). I think if you’re acting as a free agent, you should, indeed, pursue your bliss without guilt.
Damn, but that is well put.
I have a problem with the thought that children can’t be happy and healthy in a so-called “broken” home. Children know what is normal and healthy from how they grow up. Having three mommies is normal and healthy if that’s who your parents are. Having daddy only is normal and healthy if that’s what you’ve always had. Mommy and daddy living apart and potentially remarrying becomes a problem if the adults make it one: by disappearing, involving the children in their fights, withholding child support, not showing up at their recitals and birthday parties because the other parent will be there, and so on and so forth.
I agree 100% with lobotomyboy63. Maybe life isn’t supposed to be a picnic, but do you really think that you’re doing them any favors by teaching them that decades of indifference might the best that they can do? (And, yes, they do know, even if you think you’re hiding it from them.)
I’m sorry if you think that I’m being critical of your life if you are in this situation and it works for you… well, actually, I am being critical of it. 
I’m sure that there is a family or two out there where it really is the best thing, because, hey, people are unique and contrary things. But if we could play out two different life paths for most of the people in this thread, I’d put money down on the divorce being the better option for them, their spouse, and their children in at least 90% of the cases.
My great grandmother would have also laughed if I told her we would one day put a man on the moon.
As recently as 1940, life expectancy was only about 40 years. A lot of babies died in childbirth or infancy, and mothers died giving birth. Medical science has improved to say the least.
Economically, we’re much better off. My parents were married 60+ years when my dad died. I think in part it’s because they worked like dogs and didn’t have time to reflect on ‘fulfillment’ etc. But also, it was a big social stigma and probably a lot of people who should have been divorced didn’t.
My point is just that we have a lot more leisure time and lifespan to devote to fulfillment, and we can bring a lot more science to bear on the issues. A better life should be possible. No, I don’t think it’s all fun and games like a beer commercial, but I think it’s right that each generation should have it better than the previous.
I never said they can’t be. But statistically, they aren’t. More and more studies are showing that children of divorce aren’t doing as well even as adults as our peers from intact families.
Mostly I agree with this. I think there are some developmental milestones which are gender specific, and they can be dicey without a close person of the correct gender around. For example, as I just posted in another thread, teenage girls really need their dads. He’s a safe male for a young woman to explore her burgeoning power over adult males on without risking emotional entanglements or pregnancy. I really wonder if, like me, a lot of the teenage pregnancy from children of divorce comes out because we didn’t have dad around to test ourselves on, and so we chose a sexually receptive male instead.
I agree that parents can make it worse by doing those things. I’m not so sure they can make it better (than an intact family) by not doing those things. I was raised to think so, but, again, studies are coming back which show that maybe isn’t the case.
I had a dad that I saw constantly (at least a couple of days a week at the worst) and I knew loved me dearly, he just didn’t live with my Mom. Families make all sorts of arrangements work in a healthy way, as you well know having an open relationship that your family is obviously happy with. I don’t know whether missing a father figure altogether (such as being the child of a lesbian marriage) would have messed me up in any way, though. I’ve met too many children in that situation that were perfectly well adjusted.
And I question whether those studies are taking into account the health of the family relationships, regardless of divorce versus staying together. Isn’t it just as probable that people with problems in general making their lives and family situations work are more likely to divorce and not do it in a healthy way? Look at another thread currently going on this very forum that I know you’ve posted in. With their parents together or apart, those children were always going to have issues.