Hmmmm… and that conveniently seems to exclude from eternal bliss just about all people of color, who happen to believe in non-Christian faiths probably more strongly than you do in Christ.
It’s all so clear to me now. God isn’t love; He’s …
John Rocker!
I think this a great thread. Of course, I don’t think that surprises anyone. 
You know, when I was in third grade, a girl tried to convert me from my native Hinduism by telling me to say that little prayer. I don’t recall ever speaking to her again.
This post belongs in MPSIMS, doesn’t it? I need a nap.
I’d just like to point out that the Bible is one of the most altered religous texts in existance. Every time a new edition comes out, words and sometimes versus are changed. This makes one very hesitent to take the Bible exactly as it’s written, since it is in fact not in it’s original form.
Talk about coincidence. I just got this letter in the mail, addressed “TO A FRIEND”. It’s from the Bible Harvest Plan, Saint Matthew Publishing, in Tulsa OK.
Inside is a Pamphlet and a “blessed” postcard. If I order “God’s Gold Book Seed Harvest Plan”, all my financial troubles will go away. This book, by the way, has been “prayed over”. So if I order it, I’ll get raises and better jobs and such. A p.s. at the end say’s “PUT YOUR BILLS IN GOD’S HANDS” 
Sorry, I shouldn’t laugh. But it is kinda funny. Is Reverend Ike still alive?
I’m going to put it in the recycle bag. Including the picture of Jesus. Hope nothing bad happens to me. 
Peace,
mangeorge
manhattan said:
Open heart?! Jeez, I know some Dopers are dedicated, but I can’t imagine any of them reading this while going through open heart surgery!
my85car said:
Yeah, so? If somebody doesn’t think like you do, do you really think you’re going to convince them by quoting a book?
I would submit that there’s no way to get to Heaven, period. But that’s just me.
It doesn’t matter if you’re the best person in the world, helping orphans and little old ladies, and never committing a sin in all of your life. If you don’t go through Christ, you get eternal torture in Hell. Gotta love that God of yours!
I’d say, “If you’re omniscient, you already know the answer.”
This is the only thing in that entire message that made any sense.
andros said:
My god is bigger than your god! My god is bigger than your god! Nyah! (Sorry. Couldn’t resist it.)
Xeno
Well, here’s you a delightful tu quoque: Why don’t you do the same!?
castle_bravo
It is well known here that I am by no means a bible-thumper, but I felt the above inaccuracy was too much to let slide. It simply isn’t right. The fact is that modern translations (typically) are far more faithful to the original texts (which themselves are more reliable, complete, and old) than previous translations.
My85car sez:
cmkeller, zev, ckdexthavn – you guys are SOOOOO screwed!! Betcha you guys are slapping yourselves on the forehead, having wasted so much time on that stupid Talmud.
St. Peter: “Mr. Gandhi, nice to see you. Let’s check the books, shall we? Hmm, non-violence, very nice. Strictly moral life, good. Lifetime of selfless acts, check. Inspiration to millions the world over to act for the good of their fellow man, excellent!! Uh-oh, what’s this? Not Christian? Bad luck, my man – an eternity of suffering for you. Remember, it’s not the substance that counts, it’s the form!”
My85car - do you really want to worship a god that is so petty? Someone who casts a soul into eternal damnation because that soul, despite a lifetime of good works and thinking of others, slept in on Sundays? Your god has a major inferiority complex.
If I were a Christian and I got to heaven to discover that the only people there were Christians, I’d ask Peter to send me down below. Damned if I’m going to spend eternity singing hosannahs to such an egotist.
V.
Manhattan,
Did you ever know that you’re my heeeeeroooooo…
GaWd, I need sleep.
E.
SuaSponte said:
A new tagline for all the Christians around here who keep saying things like my85car said.
I happen to disagree with that myself.
By their fruits yee shall know them.
So someone who does good, is “going thru Christ”.
CollegeStudent says
However vanilla says
So c’mon guys, is Ghandi in or not? It’s CollegeStudent’s god vs vanilla’s god.
I am really sorry that you all feel the way that you do. But please note: I did not write the Bible–God did through the various writers of His choosing. And since God is perfect in every way and we mortal humans are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, HE gets to make the rules, which He has done. I don’t think that God is petty at all. Like I said, HE made the rules. We have to abide by them if we are to be saved. Like it or not.
I don’t believe that I EVER said that you had to believe in anything. You can believe that a cockroach will get you to heaven if you want to. Believe what you want. As for me: The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it. I have a feeling that way too many people believe that Hell is going to be one big party. Wrong!!
Incidently, God does not send ANYBODY to hell. People send themselves to hell, by not personally believing in their heart that Jesus died for their sins. Jesus died for all mankind’s sins. But to get that gift of salvation, it must be received. It’s like this: If I held out a $100.00 bill to you and I said it was a gift to you. All you would have to do is accept it. It would not become yours until you did. It is the same with salvation. All you have to do is accept it. It is just that easy. There are so many people that think that is the problem–it is too easy. Where does it say in the Bible that salvation should be difficult? It is not difficult. You just have to believe. Simple.
For those that don’t want to believe, or those that think I’m just a wacko, well, Flame on!!! But that won’t change the Truth or what I believe, which is what is written in the Bible.
My post was not a flame, man - it was a question, and it is a serious one. How can you possibly worship a god who thinks as holy a man as Gandhi deserves eternal damnation? I use the term holy intentionally - Gandhi was a saint on earth. And note that I said “worship”, not “believe in”. You may be absolutely right - your god is the one true God, and you must come to Him through Jesus if you are to be saved. I’m still not going to worship Him if He is so cruel.
Your god gave you free will – are you willing to stand up to your god and say, “listen, you got it wrong. Gandhi was a good man. He was mistaken about his religious beliefs, and perhaps he deserves a little slap on the wrist for that, but eternal suffering?! Isn’t that way harsh?”
There is a fine line between adoration and terror, and I think your god wants terror.
I am not anti-christian. I respect, and indeed envy, religious belief. But I have to tell you that, if I do “return to the fold” and die in a state of bliss, I cannot, as a human with free will, support a god who is so evil as to refuse heaven to Gandhi. And I know that hell ain’t a party, but a man with free will has to stand up against evil, and if the consequence of that is eternal suffering, so be it.
V.
Sounds like a pretty good definition of “petty” to me.
That’s the second time I’ve seen that one in the last few days. Does anyone actually believe in Hell, and want to go there because they think it’s some big party?
Most people who are not Christians, my85car, just don’t believe that such a place exists. I know that’s hard to imagine, but it’s true. The idea that nonbelievers think of hell as “one big party” sounds like a combination of Jack Chick and those anti-heavy-metal articles for teenagers written by fundies.
I think a better analogy would be if I held a gun to your head and asked you to believe that Regis Philbin is President of the United States. I didn’t shoot you–you shot yourself, because you refused to accept my free gift of salvation. All you had to do to accept that gift was to believe, deep in your heart, that Regis Philbin is the President of the United States. All you have to do is accept it. It is not difficult. You just have to believe. Simple.
Will do!
Dr. J
my85car
Well, the Bible says the following:
Numbers 23:19
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfil it?
But yet you claim that Jesus was both man and God. But God says himself in this verse that he is not a man. So you believe something that the Bible clearly says you shouldn’t.
Hmmmm . . .
Well, of course I don’t believe in hell at all. But if 85 turns out to be right, hell sounds to me where I will be guaranteed not to interact with people like him and that petty, infanticidalist tyrant he worships. Sign me up.
What about those who simply do not believe? They read the bible, go to church, listen with opem minds and hearts, but they just don’t truly believe in what the bible say’s. Not in their hearts.
Should they just claim to believe, and keep their mouths shut? Will that get one into heaven?
Will one of the christians here please answer the question about Ghandi. Will god let him into heaven, even though he didn’t accept Jesus as his savior? Simple!
Peace,
mangeorge
O.K., regarding Gandhi. I have absolutely nothing against the man. Yes, he was a great human being. He did a lot of great things for a lot of people. For that matter, so did Mother Teresa. But the one thing that both of them had, as well as every other human being on the planet Earth, was and is a SINFUL NATURE. And it is this sinful nature that keeps us seperated from the Glory of God. That is where salvation comes in. When you accept Christ as your savior, your sins are, in effect, wiped clean. God can not, being Holy, condone sin. So, Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead for that sin. All sins, except one, are already forgiven. That one sin is the sin of rejection of Jesus. So, yes, if Gandhi never accepted Christ as his savior, no matter how good he was, he did not go to Heaven.
As for the quote in Numbers. Jesus said the He and the Father were one. No argument there. But the thing that He was refering to was that He and God were exactly alike in how they do things, their thoughts and deeds. God did not change himself into a man and come to earth in the form of Jesus. At various times, Jesus prayed to the Father. If he was actually God, He would have been talking to himself.
In the creation account in Genesis, when it came time to create man, God said, "Let US make man in OUR
image. That tells me that they are two seperate people.
As far as whether Hell exists or not, let me say this. In the Bible, the story of the rich man and Lazarus comes to mind. The rich man died and his soul went to Hell. Lazarus also died and his soul went to Heaven. In that passage, the rich man could see Lazarus being comforted. He asked that Lazarus dip his finger in cool water because he was IN AGONY IN THIS FLAME. (story shortened and paraphrased.) Now, whether Hell actually exists is not for me to say. I personally believe that it does. Assume for a minute that it does. Do you want to go there? To be agonizing for all eternity in “this flame”?
As I said in an earlier post, I did not write the Bible, but I believe in it’s every word. If you don’t, that does not change what it says. The Bible does not say “go ahead and do what ever you want to, just do some good things, and you will go to Heaven”. If anybody can show me where it says that, without taking a passage out of context, I will shut up. And before anybody goes and quotes a passage of scripture from the Old Testament, realize this. In the Old Testament, people looked forward to the coming Messiah. Since Jesus time, we have looked back at what He did on the cross.
Let me ask CollegeStudent and my85car this: What if I were to post a thread called “There is no god, and your not going to Heaven” Would you be offended?