Well, we’ve established that Ghandi is now IN AGONY IN THIS FLAME. CollegeStudent hasn’t answered my question, but I hope you might, 85: are you responsible for those whom you offend with your proselytizing nature, who might otherwise be saved by a less righteous approach, when they go to Hell? It’s your approach that pushes them away from God. Isn’t that your fault?
No, because I know that there IS!!!
LOL! ;j
Seriously, however, I have a ** real ** problem when someone tries to tell me that the Jews who died in the Holocaust are going to Hell because they did not believe in Jesus, regardless of their personal lives, while the Nazi {deleted because I don’t use that kind of language)s who murdered them get into Heaven.
Zev Steinhardt
Hansel–
Jesus, in His great commission, told everybody to “go out into the world and preach the Gospel”. He did not say to feel guilty if somebody didn’t believe you. How is it MY fault if YOU choose to think that I am a nut case? God gave every person a free will to do and think and act however they so choose. He will not force his will on anybody. As for what I am doing, I am only doing what Jesus commanded me to do. I am NOT forcing anybody to do anything. I’m just “tellin’ it like it is”.
The problem with a thread like this is that it is totally directionless now. I know Great Debates is the proper place for witnessing, but there is absolutely nothing being accomplished here now. Without an OP to refer to, there is no debate, it has just deteriorated to a name calling session. The aggrieved Christians are going to continue to reiterate what the Bible says, the non-Christians are going to continue to reiterate how weak the basis of the Christian faith is and a hostile time will be had by all.
[hijack]
You know I think all you ladies are just the most beautiful women in the world and you men have to be the most handsome in all creation.
[/hijack]
Well, since I don’t have a personal relationship Jesus, I guess that I’m lucky that I don’t believe in hell.
::Dodging the eternal damnation bullet::
As for the Nazi’s, I may be wrong, but I seem to remember seeing someplace that they were, for the most part, athiests. IF that is the case, there won’t be any, or very, very, few, of them in Heaven. The only ones that will be in Heaven are the ones that found and received forgiveness in Jesus. As for the Jews that died in the terrible holocaust, even they had a sinful nature. And without the forgiveness that only Christ can give, they had no hope.
One point of clarification. In my opinion, the ONLY people that can go to Heaven without Christ as their Savior are those people that don’t know the difference between right and wrong. IE: babies, people that are severely retarded, etc. The Bible says that there can be no condemnation where sin is not known. But that does not mean that a person can just pretend he “didn’t know he was a sinner”. The Bible also says that no person is without excuse. (Except as noted above)
What I meant was, it says in the bible that the first commandment is to love God and your neighbor with all your heart.
So if someone never heard of Jesus’ death on the cross, they can still go to Heaven if they act like Jesus did: help others, love them unconditionally.
You’ve misinterpreted my question. I’m not doubting that you should spread the word, in accordance with Jesus’ directive. I’m suggesting that confronting people with bible verses and spiritual ultimatums doesn’t work very well (as you’ve acknowledged by admitting that you’ll probably be flamed here - not because the devil lives in the hearts of the other posters, but because they’ll be irritated by your approach).
Personally, and I think others here will agree, I’m irritated by your approach. What seems obvious to you isn’t to me, so putting ‘the truth’ in front of me and telling me I’ll burn in Hell for not acknowledging is almost guaranteed to fail. The verses you quote are holy to you; to me, their words from a book to which I pay little attention, so words that inspire you are boring to me.
On the other hand, other firm Christians here, like TomnDebb, have several times made me think about my agnosticism critically because they are calm and humble, and suggest to me that they have a source of inner peace that I’m missing, which is their faith. Their example pushes me towards God. Your example pushes me away; likewise, the twits who showed up from the LBMB, dripping bible verses, intolerance, and fire-and-brimstone.
As a practical matter, you must admit that there’s a marketing aspect to proselytizing. There are more and less effective measures; there are better and worse ways that will show themselves to be more successful, meeting your end of bringing people to God. You’ve admitted that your hardline stance will probably not be successful. This makes me think that you’re less interested in saving people than in meeting a requirement of your faith, and perhaps feeling a little martyred for trying and being rejected, which makes your whole act a little less than convincing, which further subtracts from your effectiveness.
If I go to Hell because your example is one I decide I don’t want to follow, and you could have convinced me with a better example, isn’t my eternal agony your fault?
Of course that should have said
::Dodging the eternal damnation bullet::
Damned smilies.
Of course, ** my85car **, this begs the question:
What about all those people who lived before Jesus? Did they go to Hell regardless of their personal lives? Noah? Abraham? Isaac? Jacob? Joseph? Moses? Aaron? Samuel? David? Solomon? Josiah? Mordechai and Esther? Ezra?
What’s the point of their lives if they had to go to hell regardless of their deeds? Hardly sounds like a loving god to me…
Zev Steinhardt
I agree with this completely. I think that when CollegeStudent started this thread, he/she was not looking for a debate. Even though this is Great Debates, I think it’s obvious that CollegeStudent wasn’t putting this up for debate. Just trying to proselytize by presenting the Gospel. But this is the only forum something like this could be posted without someone saying, “This belongs in Great Debates.”
The reason I said that I would probably not be successful is because of the many, many different belief systems out there or the total lack of belief.
If I have come off sounding like a “hellfire and damnation” preacher, it is only because I care and I don’t want anybody to suffer the eternal fires of Hell. If I have offended anybody with my message, I apologize, but the Bible is very clear to me about all of this.
I’ll tell you why I so firmly believe the way I do. About 25 years ago, my first wife left me, taking both my kids with her. She ran off with one of my co-workers. She did everything in her power to turn my kids against me. It hit me so hard that I very seriously considered suicide. I was at work, barely doing my job. I couldn’t concentrate on anything. I just stared off into space. I thought that the only viable alternative was suicide. I felt as if the whole entire world was on my shoulders. I mean, my kids were gone, my wife, who I thought loved me, had run off with another man. So what did I have to live for? I was just standing there when all of a sudden, all of those feelings were, JUST GONE !! I had absolutely no idea what had happened. I only knew that, for whatever reason, I no longer felt lousy, no longer had ideas of suicide, and I felt great! I went to the nearest phone and called my sister, who was already a Christian. I told her what had happened and I asked her what it was. Her answer was, and I quote, “Can you come to dinner tonight?” I went to dinner that night and she told me about Jesus. That night I accepted Jesus as my Saviour. I have never been sorry that I did. To this day, I believe that it was the Lord that lifted all of that weight off my shoulders that day. There is no other explanation. I am eternally greatful that He did, because I probably would not be typing this right now if He hadn’t.
Now you know why I believe as strongly as I do. If I come off as trying to “market” something, you all now know why.
To Zev Steinhardt:
As I said in an earlier post, we look back by faith at what Christ did for us on the cross. In the old testament, all of those people looked forward, by faith, to the coming Messiah. And also, in the Old Testament, the people were under the Law. Their sins were forgiven by blood sacrifices from animals. We are under grace. Our sins are forgiven by the blood that Christ shed on the cross.
It’s a good story, but it avoids my question. Actually, what I’m suggesting is that you consider some “marketing” (that makes proselytizing sound venal, which I don’t intend). You’ve sounded self-righteous and hardline, and you know that it’s a bad approach to the “many different belief systems or the total lack of belief”. So are you more interested in saving souls, or in stroking your own faith?
Why don’t you try lurking for a while in the threads on religion, and see how people handle the different temperments of the different Christians who still hang around here?
<slight hijack>
Libertarian:
OK, Lib. So far I’ve read and considered every post made in this thread. Was there some point you were trying to make? Since what you quoted was the only thing I’ve added here, I’m not sure what you meant. It seemed to me at first that you were implying hypocrisy on my part, but the more I think about it, the more sure I am that I’ve never given you cause to think that of me. So what’s the deal, my friend?
<hijack is over>
I appreciate your devotion. I can only speak for myself, but I find people spouting biblical quotes and urging others to follow them to be annoying and counterproductive. I grew up having to attend “revivals” and love was never spoken of, just the hellfire and brimstone. Christians that live and love and demonstrate by example are more productive
First … CollegeStudent, BRAVO for stating the gospel in simple, easy to understand form. I admire you and applaud you for speaking the truth in love and not backing down.
I’d like to chime in on one point. SuaSponte said: “How can you possibly worship a god who thinks as holy a man as Gandhi deserves eternal damnation?” You also said "I cannot, as a human with free will, support a god who is so evil as to refuse heaven to Gandhi. "
Calling someone “good” can be relative, in a sense. Yes Ghandi did many, many good deeds in his lifetime, possibly many many more than some Christians! But we forget that he was human. He wasn’t God. He was a human being like you and I. He got irritated at things like you and I. He got mad at people like you and I. He was not perfect.
It is SOOO easy to put a person on a pedestal and forget they are real, flesh and blood human beings. People like Ghandi become “larger than life” as time goes on, as does Mother Theresa. But they were flawed people like you and me who did many, many good deeds in their lives.
Billy Graham might be another person you put in this list of “good-deed doers”. But one thing Billy Graham has said about himself is that he is a sinner. He says clearly that he does not and never will deserve to go to heaven, and it’s true. It’s true for us all! Doing good deeds doesn’t make you a “good person” who deserves heaven.
There’s MUCH more to this topic. Most of us don’t even realize just how much we sin on a constant basis. If we knew, it’d blow our minds. Most people commit WELL over 100,000 sins in their lifetime, and that’s actually a small number. This is true for people who do good deeds as well as for those who don’t. We are all equally guilty.
As CollegeStudent said, "The only way to heaven is accepting the sacrifice of Christ on the cross of Calvalry. " I love the simplicity of the gospel. We are guilty and deserve punishment, but God provided the way out. Beautiful. Thanks again CS.
OK, my85car, what about Mordechai and Esther? What about other people who were born and died during the 70 years between the first and second temples? They had no sacrifices, because the Temple was destroyed. They had no Jesus, because he wasn’t born yet. Were those two and a half generations just condemned to hell without any hope of redemption? Are Mordechai and Esther currently in hell?
Zev Steinhardt
I was bored so I went over to the LBMB and found this.
CollegeStudent
Here is the link too.
http://www.leftbehind.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/003075.html