For those SERIOUSLY seeking a personal relationship with God

[Falcon]

**To this day, I believe that it was the Lord that lifted all of that weight off my shoulders that day. There is no other explanation. I am eternally greatful that He did, because I probably would not be typing this right now if He hadn’t.

Now you know why I believe as strongly as I do. If I come off as trying to “market” something, you all now know why.**

Well, let me see here…I too, have an experience to share. I have been severely depressed for over 14 years. I have an incurable autoimmune disease that makes it hard for me to work at times. In the past month, I have had more personal crises come down than any one person should EVER have to deal with in their lifetime. And I have wanted to kill myself more times than I can count. Did a few weeks ago, in fact - had the knife out.

But you know what? I didn’t. Know why? Because I too had a vision. One of the Goddess offering me her hand to join in the dance of life. And I accepted. I believe that the Goddess saved my life. There can be no other explanation. And therefore I became a Pagan. smiles sweetly and departs

[DAVEW0071]

I wasn’t going to respond to this thread initially, but since it’s turned into a “if this is what your god is like then screw him” debate, I feel I might as well jump in. If I mess up someone’s name or leave someone out, sorry, but this thread is getting too convoluted to follow it very accurately.

First, if you read Paul’s letter to the Roman church, it makes it clear that following a set of rules is not how reconciliation with God is achieved. Doing good works, not lying, not cheating, all those things are fine, but it’s clear that even with the highest standards, we fall short of God’s righteousness. The law was given to point this out, since it is a standard that no one can meet 100% of the time.

Therefore, since behavior is not the ticket, what is? Again, Paul makes it clear that it is faith that justifies us in God’s sight.

The logical extension of this thought creates some difficulty, and I don’t claim to understand it, but I’m not a theologian. Prior to Christ, faith (in Christ’s redemptive act to come, I imagine) brought salvation to people. Their behavior and their striving to obey God’s laws was the result of their faith, not an end unto itself.

For those of you who think that God is being petty and exclusive, rather than loving and generous, consider this:
Certain strictures have always been part of religion. Dietary laws, behavioral codes, etc. What you’re balking at is not the exclusivity, it’s the way that exclusivity is presented. Why Jesus? Why do I have to do it through faith and not by just being good? How unAmerican, to not be able to achieve that which we desire by dint of hard work and individual stick-to-it-iveness. Well, that’s not my call, but it comes down to accepting it or rejecting it. I’ve made my decision, and I assume everyone else here has as well. We can leave it at that.

I don’t want to throw pre-packaged platitudes around or reduce this very complicated argument to a black-and-white issue. There are many shades of gray, and I’ve spent the last 32 years of my life learning about them. The simpler you think these things are, the more complex they become.

Are there doubts? Sure. Are there charlatans? You bet. Is it easy? Nope. Am I convinced I’m not just chasing shadows? Absolutely.

One last thing that Romans puts forth, and I don’t think anyone on either side of the argument can fault it:
Paul exhorts the church in Rome to live blameless lives. He tells them they have a hope of being renewed and perfect, and since they will be that way someday, then they should act that way now.

Would that everyone did.

[SuaSponte]

Wanderer sez:

**
The problem with a thread like this is that it is totally directionless now. I know Great Debates is the proper place for witnessing, but there is absolutely nothing being accomplished here now. Without an OP to refer to, there is no debate, it has just deteriorated to a name calling session. The aggrieved Christians are going to continue to reiterate what the Bible says, the non-Christians are going to continue to reiterate how weak the basis of the Christian faith is and a hostile time will be had by all.

**

I disagree, because 1) You overgeneralize - from your statement, you are declaring that My85car’s version of Christianity is the only version. Untrue. I could give a dozen or more examples of sects that would believe Gandhi is in Heaven.

2. I believe I have not flamed, but asked an important question - the god that My85car describes acts in, from what I was taught by the Jesuits, an unethical manner, and I have already described how and why I believe it is unethical. So either (a) defend god’s ethics, or (b) defend your faith in an unethical god. (“your” being general not specific.)

If My85car’s god is a good god, than it should be an easyt answer, and an answer My85car knows or should know, for as the Jezzies taught me, an unreflected faith is an insult to god.

V.

[David_B]

my85car said:

I did not write the Bible–God did through the various writers of His choosing. And since God is perfect in every way and we mortal humans are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, HE gets to make the rules, which He has done. I don’t think that God is petty at all. Like I said, HE made the rules. We have to abide by them if we are to be saved. Like it or not.

You have just described every petty homicidal dictator.

Since Saddam Hussein wrote the laws, he gets to make the rules. And if you don’t follow them, he’ll have you executed. But you have no right to complain, because he wrote the rules.

I could say the same for Slobodan Milosovic, Adolph Hitler, Stalin, etc.

But somehow you “think” your deity is somehow different. Damned if I can figure out how…

The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it.

Well, that kind of attitude certainly frees you from having to worry about thinking. Must be much easier…

Incidently, God does not send ANYBODY to hell. People send themselves to hell, by not personally believing in their heart that Jesus died for their sins.

This ridiculous argument again (you’re by no means the first to use it)? I’m sorry, but your god can’t get out of the blame so easily. If he is all-powerful and he made the rules and punishes people, then he is to blame for sending good people to eternal torture in Hell. Just like every other petty dictator, your god is evil.

As for the Nazi’s, I may be wrong, but I seem to remember seeing someplace that they were, for the most part, athiests.

Not surprisingly, you’re wrong. See http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html for some info on Hitler’s beliefs, in particular, but also included are statements about Hitler wanting to make sure not to offend the Catholic Nazis, etc.

The only ones that will be in Heaven are the ones that found and received forgiveness in Jesus. As for the Jews that died in the terrible holocaust, even they had a sinful nature. And without the forgiveness that only Christ can give, they had no hope.

What a wonderful god! You can commit mass murder and still get into heaven if you realize, at the last minute, that maybe murder was wrong and you “accept Jesus.” But those good and innocent victims get sent to hell for eternity. What a system!

[SuaSponte]

DaveW007 sez:

**
For those of you who think that God is being petty and exclusive, rather than loving and generous, consider this:
Certain strictures have always been part of religion. Dietary laws, behavioral codes, etc. What you’re balking at is not the exclusivity, it’s the way that exclusivity is presented. Why Jesus? Why do I have to do it through faith and not by just being good? How unAmerican, to not be able to achieve that which we desire by dint of hard work and individual stick-to-it-iveness. Well, that’s not my call, but it comes down to accepting it or rejecting it. I’ve made my decision, and I assume everyone else here has as well. We can leave it at that.

**

Nice post - it made me think. Here’s a response question for ya. Taking Gandhi as an example again, let’s assume that the Hindu religion has a similar restrictions as the Commandmants, in particular, “We (the Hindu gods) are the many true gods. You shalt not put any false gods before us.” Gandhi grows up strictly raised in his faith. Isn’t he in a Catch-22? If he turns to Jesus, he is condemned under his original religion. If he doesn’t he is condemned by the Judeo-Christian god. He can’t turn to reason to make his decision because (1) the facts underlying both faith are probably equivalent (I’m sure some Hindu’s argue that as many prophesies of that faith have come true as of the Bible), and (2) he’s supposed to act on faith, not reason.

Does god expect the “pagans” to recognize the true faith instinctively?

V.

[Holly]

my85car:

One point of clarification. In my opinion, the ONLY people that can go to Heaven without Christ as their Savior are those people that don’t know the difference between right and wrong. IE: babies, people that are severely retarded, etc. The Bible says that there can be no condemnation where sin is not known.

What happens to a person who isn’t “saved”, then sustains such a terrible head injury that he lives in a near-vegetative state for the next 20 years?

[lswote]

SuaSponte

**
I disagree, because 1) You overgeneralize - from your statement, you are declaring that My85car’s version of Christianity is the only version. Untrue. I could give a dozen or more examples of sects that would believe Gandhi is in Heaven.

2. I believe I have not flamed, but asked an important question - the god that My85car describes acts in, from what I was taught by the Jesuits, an unethical manner, and I have already described how and why I believe it is unethical. So either (a) defend god’s ethics, or (b) defend your faith in an unethical god. (“your” being general not specific.)

If My85car’s god is a good god, than it should be an easyt answer, and an answer My85car knows or should know, for as the Jezzies taught me, an unreflected faith is an insult to god.
**

Actually SuaSponte, I am not a Christian, so I am certainly not supporting My85car’s views. My point was since there is no OP, there is no directed debate. I realize that debates tend to get heated, but I think the heat is a byproduct of the debate not the focus. Since there is no OP to debate here, all we have is heat.

[Milossarian]

I wouldn’t wish the worst enemies I’ve ever had in my life, the people who have wronged me worse than anyone else has ever, eternal pain and suffering.

But, according to my85car and college student, the all-powerful God, who created this amazing universe and world and life, is more petty and vindictive than little ol’ me?

Why would the key to afterlife be some kind of cruel game? I’ll give you the ability to reason and doubt; then I’ll give you information that all of your rationality and training should cause you to doubt; then I’ll tell you that if you don’t believe this hard-to-believe stuff, you will suffer in agony forever; then I’ll let you twist in the wind and think about it.

I wasn’t so mean to the ants I used to stomp when I was a 5 year old!

Even if we were completely wrong, and the answer to eternal bliss is indeed feeding this apparently bloodthirsty god sacrifices (blood of animals in OT times; blood of Christ from crucifixion on), why wouldn’t we simply be enlightened about The Truth upon shedding our mortal coil?

Oh, I’m sorry. I know the answer. Because God says so, because the Bible says so, and God wrote the Bible.

[El_Guapo]

If he was actually God, He would have been talking to himself.

So you are saying that Jesus wasn’t god? If so, you are stating something counter to the very base of Christian theology. For example, the Athanasian creed states “The divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal. What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.” I can’t tell you how many times it was said in church Jesus was fully god, fully man. Now you say different?

In the creation account in Genesis, when it came time to create man, God said, "Let US make man in OUR
image. That tells me that they are two seperate people.

That is a common mistake and a horrible exegesis. This does not refer to seperate people in Genesis as Christianity would have you believe, but the Hebrew linguistics of this verse refer to God speaking to all of creation in a majestic role. Even my NIV bible explains that one!

As far as whether Hell exists or not, let me say this. In the Bible, the story of the rich man and Lazarus comes to mind. The rich man died and his soul went to Hell. Lazarus also died and his soul went to Heaven. In that passage, the rich man could see Lazarus being comforted. He asked that Lazarus dip his finger in cool water because he was IN AGONY IN THIS FLAME. (story shortened and paraphrased.) Now, whether Hell actually exists is not for me to say. I personally believe that it does. Assume for a minute that it does. Do you want to go there? To be agonizing for all eternity in “this flame”?

Ok, repeat after me, PARABLE. This is a parable, and you can not make theological assumptions on a story to illustrate a point. If so, then I challenge you to start tossing around mountains, as obviously your faith is more than a mustard seed. Jesus said you could, so go do it! Wait. . . it was a PARABLE! Any research into OT (Torah) theology and hell will make your conclusions of an eternal tormenting hell called into serious doubt.

In the Old Testament, people looked forward to the coming Messiah.

And I believe they are STILL looking forward to the comming messiah.

Jesus, in His great commission, told everybody to “go out into the world and preach the Gospel”.

No, he told the apostles present to do this. Christianity has just decided this applies to all believers. Of course, there is some doubt that this passage was even part of the original manuscript.

And also, in the Old Testament, the people were under the Law. Their sins were forgiven by blood sacrifices from animals.

Problem is, blood sacrifice wasn’t necessary for the forgiveness of sins. There were other sacrifices acceptable for forgiveness, and in Hosea it was stated that confession could take the place. Christianity would have you believe that it required blood sacrifice, but is simply not true in Judaism. Besides, this was true only of the decendents of Abraham, the Jewish people. There were righteous gentiles that God made a covenant with as well, see Noah.

It is SOOO easy to put a person on a pedestal and forget they are real, flesh and blood human beings. People like Ghandi become “larger than life” as time goes on, as does Mother Theresa. But they were flawed people like you and me who did many, many good deeds in their lives.

I think Jesus got put in this group as well, and they built a whole religion around it.

We are guilty and deserve punishment, but God provided the way out.

Which way out? The law of the OT or the total reversal the Christianity touts in the NT. What, God got it wrong the first time so he had to go change all the rules? It’s no wonder that the Jewish people never accepted Christianity. It started off as a Judaic cult and went downhill from there.

[tracer]

If a consequence of having free will is that we can sin and be sent to hell for all eternity, but once we get into heaven we never even have to worry about sinning or going to hell, then do we have free will in heaven?

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~umhillrr/after19.htm

[vanilla]

Holly said:

[quote]
What happens to a person who isn’t “saved”, then sustains such a terrible head injury that he lives in a near-vegetative state for the next 20 years?

[quote/]

They become a candidate for president of the United States.

[David_B]

[Moderator Hat: ON]

Vanilla – you’re doing your quote endings backwards. It’s not quote/, it’s /quote in the brackets. I fixed your first one, but I’m leaving this one so you can see what you did.

---

David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator

[Moderator Hat: OFF]

[David_B]

Holly asked:

What happens to a person who isn’t “saved”, then sustains such a terrible head injury that he lives in a near-vegetative state for the next 20 years?

Or worse, a Christian who is “saved” and then gets a head injury that causes his personality to change such that he is no longer a Christian. Does he still get into heaven?

[FriendofGod]

Just thought I’d chime in on one point:

David B quoted my85car as saying: “And since God is perfect in every way and we mortal humans are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, HE gets to make the rules, which He has done. I don’t think that God is petty at all. Like I said, HE made the rules. We have to abide by them if we are to be saved. Like it or not.”

David responded: "You have just described every petty homicidal dictator.

Since Saddam Hussein wrote the laws, he gets to make the rules. And if you don’t follow them, he’ll have you executed. But you have no right to complain, because he wrote the rules.

I could say the same for Slobodan Milosovic, Adolph Hitler, Stalin, etc.

But somehow you “think” your deity is somehow different. Damned if I can figure out how…"

David, truthfully your audacity amazes me. You KNOW what Christians believe about God, and sometimes I think you take things out of context and twist them on purpose. God is PERFECT. He is TOTALLY GOOD. He is TRUSTWORTHY. Someone like THAT who “makes the rules” doesn’t make me uncomfortable at all. In fact I’m GLAD for it!

Are you telling me you genuinely didn’t realize Christians believed this? I’d think at least from reading my posts on other topics you would’ve picked up that little tidbit. Forgive me for my strong reaction, but sometimes you just make me shake my head in disbelief.

Look at it this way David. Suppose America was a dictatorship, but the dictator was perfect. That means that he always was just and fair, was always loving, and never abused his authority once. Would you really have a problem with that?

Hate to break it to ya … but that’s the way earth is going to be someday. The Bible predicts that Jesus will rule the earth for 1000 years, so you better get used to the idea!

Sorry again … maybe I shouldn’t have jumped all over you, but I was just blown away by what you said.

[Czarcasm]

FriendofGod, why do you find it so hard to believe that others might believe differently than you, or might not believe at all? You’ve come over to the SDMB with the intent of converting us to your religion(and please don’t mis-use the word “sharing” unless you are going to provide a Christian-to-English dictionary), yet you are constantly amazed and astounded that we don’t accept everything you say without question.

I’ll try to make this simple. DavidB has said that he doesn’t believe in your god, and that if he did exist, David would consider him to be a petty and dangerous tyrant. I agree with him. I do not consider myself to be above your god or against your god, anymore than I consider myself above and/or against the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, or Captain Kirk.

[Satan]

**David, truthfully your audacity amazes me.

**

David’s audacity is nothing. Wait 'til you see mine…

You say that “God is PERFECT” in spite of many people here showing you the imperfection that is His legacy.

Why would a perfect diety make a race which was so imperfect that we could never be good enough for His grace?

Why would a perfect God give such conflicting and contrary signals? I mean, you have over here a ton of people who are still waiting for messiah, people such as yourself who think He already came and is named Christ, and really THERE IS NO WAY BOTH OF YOU ARE RIGHT!

And you can argue lineages and NT vs. OT and prophesy all you like, but for every convincing argument that Jesus fit the bill, there are Jews who will give equally convincing arguments that Jesus was a cool guy and all, but not messiah.

And what of Islam? You are aware that the first words of the Koran are “This book is not to be doubted,” and that the prophet Muhammud was presented the words he inscribed by the Angel Gabriekl and that a transcript of these infallible words of Allah are inscribed on a great gold tablet in heaven, right?

And let’s talk about the countless sould who never got to hear of either of these more modern monotheist attempts at spirituality - folks in Africa who never heard of Jesus, allah or the G-d of the Torah, for all time until only the last fleeting moments of our history and still continuing.

How about all of the people throughout antiquity who never had a chance to ehar about any of this because they predate it?

According to your system, how many millions of people NEVER HAD A CHANCE at this amazing afterlife you promise all?

You can feel free to believe what you want. I think all of you can. But I am really tired of this “witnessing.” Because try all you want, you cannot get to the countless millions of people who already died without a chance in Hell of hearing your words.

Maybe the reason a large amount of modern Protestant-based fundamentalists are so gung-ho about spreading the word in the most annoying ways - campus preachers who scream and condemn, people who throw bloody fetuses at people going into Planned Parenthood, message board SPAMMERS - is because they are all men of their times.

I mean, some of the biggest names in the Christian history - Calvin, Luther - were scared to death. During that time, it was not considered impolite to torture or kill those who disagreed with your own theology, so they did those things. We can also discuss the Crusades.

Now, since all that jazz is so politically incorrect, this deep fear manifests itself into peopel trying to scream louder than anyone else. Though in reality, what they are doing is trying to scream louder than the voices inside their own heads.

These are the voices of reason, the voices of doubt. We all have them, no matter how or even if we are spiritually inclined. But it’s worse for you, because so much does not make sense and so much goes against what you reallyt want to believe.

How about when an un-saved gamily member or friend dies. The voices get REALLY loud then, don’t they.

Well, here’s a newsflash, kiddies… You can’t scream louder than the voices. They just get louder.

And they never go away…

Oh, and lest I forget:

Damned smilies.

Of course they’re damned! Ever seen a smilie that was “SERIOUSLY seeking a personal relationship with God”?!?

---

Yer putz,
Satan :wally

TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Two months, two weeks, two days, 17 hours, 46 minutes and 33 seconds.
3109 cigarettes not smoked, saving $388.70.
Life saved: 1 week, 3 days, 19 hours, 5 minutes.

[FriendofGod]

slythe: okay, okay, point at least somewhat taken. David, I’m sorry I was too sharp in my response. However, you misunderstood my complaint slythe. I didnt expect him to believe like me, but when he said he “couldn’t figure out how” ‘my deity’ was different, that’s what I reacted to. He’s seen my posts and dozens of others by other believers that clearly state how God is drastically different from ‘dictators’. Whether he choose to BELIEVE it or not is another matter, but it’s been clearly stated what God is like and how Christians believe. And it’s not even remotely difficult to ‘figure out’.

[my85car]

When I first posted to this thread, I knew what would happen, but I also knew that, in my own mind, I had to do it. And just as I suspected, what I expected, happened.

Since I have decided that there is absolutley NO way I will ever change the way anybody on this board thinks or sees things, I will not post any more to this thread.

All of you people, whether athiests, agnostics, or whatever other “religion” you may be, can just sit back on your laurels and do nothing except flame. Maybe, once in awhile, you can do a good deed for somebody.

I said earlier, and I will say again, I never said that you HAD to believe the way I do. I just stated things the way I believe them to be. You people, on the other hand, have done the same to me. But you don’t see me flaming you, now do you? That is, unless you consider this a flame. If that is the case, then I am guilty.

You can all believe any way that you so choose. That is why God gave everybody a free will. The unfortunate part is that not everybody can be right. When it comes down to it, there can be ONLY ONE right answer. I believe that I am right. You believe that you are right. So who will win?

If I believe the way I do, and it turns out that I was wrong, or that there isn’t any God, what have I lost? On the other hand, what if my beliefs are the right way to Heaven? What have you lost? You have lost EVERYTHING my friend, EVERYTHING.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Have a wonderful day…

[Liberal]

Xeno

So what’s the deal, my friend?

It was nothing but a friendly ribbing. A joke, that’s all.

Satan

Thank you.

[FriendofGod]

Well, ah, hi there Satan. Interesting that that’s your user name, because the answer to most of the issues you raised can be answered by the username you picked.

God is not the only supernatural being at work in the world at large. To paraphrase a famous Christian quote, “Satan hates you and has a horrible plan for your life!” All the bad things in the world that God gets blamed for are either the work of Satan, or the work of mankind in it’s sinful state.

Believe me, ah, Satan (this is a rather difficult conversation to pull off!), but Satan (the real one that is) desperately wants to be sure you are confused about God. He will throw as many possible deceptions your way and try to make them all look good, which will result in what you said: “Why would a perfect God give such conflicting and contrary signals?” God isn’t giving any conflicting or contrary signals at all … Satan is.

Satan isn’t cute. He’s the epidamy (sp?) of evil. Satan literally hates you, Satan. (?!?) He wants to destroy your life, throw you into confusion, and cause you to not believe in Christ. It’s not a cute video game we’re playing … it’s real life and the consequences are very, very real if he wins the battle for your soul.
As for the whole classic “what about the pygmies in Africa” argument, I will point out one scripture and let it speak for itself. “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”

To be honest, this issue is somewhat of a cop out. It’s an interesting question but it’s not the one you should be asking. What about YOU and YOUR relationship to God? YOU’VE heard the gospel. What will YOU do with it? What someone in a foreign land does or doesn’t do won’t affect YOUR decision.

I hope you seriously consider what I’m saying Satan. God loves you and wants to have a love relationship with you. Don’t let the REAL Satan block the path of your heart.