You son of a bitch. How dare you? I will post one response here – according to you, my doing good deeds is a waste of time, 'cause I’m going to Hell anyway.
The rest of my response I’m taking to the Pit.
V.
Dammit, SuaSponte! You beat me to pointing out the ridiculousness of that statement.
As was so eloquently pointed out earlier, Christian values as expressed by some in this thread are all about form, substance - literally - be damned.
I have considered myself a Christian, but have had my doubts about many issues in the religion.
The posts here by some of the proselityzers have helped me “see the light,” though not in the direction they probably intended.
I disagree with what their religion is about. Their religion is not my religion.
It appears to me that you don’t worship God, or Jesus. You worship a book.
(Sorry if that comes off as harsh.)
my85car:
[sigh]Sticks and stones may break my bones, but Pascal’s Wager doesn’t scare me.[sigh]
It seems kind of selfish to believe in god for the purpose of avoiding hell and obtaining a place in heaven. Does it count if you believe for selfish reasons only? Does it count if the basis of your faith is only fear of punishment?
It’s ludicrous to suggest that eternal torment is an appropriate punishment for any earthly crime. There’s no way such a belief can be reconciled with the concept of justice.
[Moderator Hat: ON]
SuaSponte said:
And you should have taken that first sentence with you. It has no place here.
David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator
[Moderator Hat: OFF]
Apologies, Mr. B. It won’t happen again.
V.
**
Greetings.
**
How ironic, since I do happen to know the answers to them. Even if you don’t.
**
Prove it.
**
Well, that depends on who you ask, now dooesn’t it.
Some Christian sects think of Satan as God’s enemy, and that the fallen angel is actively able to tempt people to do as he wishes, and that he has control over multitudes of evil spirits, fallen angels, and demons that are allied with him in this “sppiritual warfare” with God.
Other see him as a weakling who is there simply to pick up the pieces after you are not forgiven through grace and rules over a place where there is no God for those who chose to not believe in God.
The Bible is, as usual in these affairs, quite ambivilent about this. You see times where God gives Satan great powers - such as Job - ut how does this translate into a modern world? Really, there is no real way to decide what powers Satan would have over us now, and if you say any differently you have a vivid imagination and/or are deluding yourself.
**
Again, not according to all believers. What are there, like 25,000 different distinct denominations now and throughout history since the great Protestant moveement?
That’s a lot of people who claim to believe as you do - and not including the various sects of Judaism (same God, but they don’t think the middle man is here yet) and Islam (same God, different view-point). Many of them have very different views about this Satan dude. Why are they incorrect while yours is right, huh?
**
Bullshit. Without the mythological Satan (every good religion needs to have an antagonist - you would know that if you opene3d up some books besides the Bible once ina while), it makes it very difficult to defend your God, now doesn’t it?
In fact, as can easily be shown by people whether they argue science of philosophy, it is very easy to show how the God of your Bible is full of conflicting and contradictory signals.
The evidence is obvious: Ask a Jew why they don’t believe in Christ. They will show you a TON of things in what you deem the OT (and they deem “The whole story, period.”) as to why Jesus is not qualified for the job! Of course, you will answer differently… This is what makes it contradictory and conflicting! So unless the book was writen by Satan, then it ain’t Satan responsible for this.
(Also, the book says that Pi = 3 for that matter… Guuess Satan wants you to suck at math too, huh…)
Also, if the book itself is the “inerrent word of God” (which the Koran also says, by the way - ever read it?) then why did Jesus come along and go, “All those rules befoore? Forget about it. Doesn’t count anymore. Here, have a pork chop”?
Seems a “perfect” God woulda gotten it right the first time.
He also might have mentioned something about how Jesus was going to need a second coming to get his shit right. Sorry, I am lapsing into my Jewish heritage here, but you’d think that a “clear and conscise Perfect God” would have mentioned in the Torah that the messiah will not get it right the first time, but He’ll come back, promise!
So, in a nutshell, Satan is not confusing us. The Bible is. So either God is confusing, oor the folks who actually wrote the book (Hmmmmm…) a bunch of peoople over many ages (Hmmmmm…) might have made a few mistakes (Pi = 3 Hmmm…).
**
Right. Which is why we have 25,000 Protestant sects alone. Which is why there are tons of religions in the history of mankind before anyone thought to scribble down what becamse yoour Bible.
In fact, this whole monotheistic idea is a relatively new idea in theological history. Maybe you might want to know that almoost all other religions were believers in many different Gods. In the history of man, it took quite a long time for them to “clearly see,” as you put it.
So, sorry, that’s a cop-out. Unless you are saying that followers of the ancient Norse Gods were told, “Hey, actually it’s me, but I’ll let you in because this was the best way you could interpret Me,” then your answer does NOT hold water.
And if you do believe that, then you are a Uniterian Universalist like me. 
**
I can ask any question I want. Free will, remember?
If you are so damned worried about the sould of the living - this is why you witness, yes? - then why can’t I be concerned about the souls of the dead?
**
I have a good relationship with God, thanks. One that entails me not sprouting off to those who don’t give a shit about it without them asking.
**
Wow… What a total back-track this one is.
So you are here to save us, but when I worry about those who could NEVER have been saved… What, don’t worry about the guy behind the curtain?
Hypocrite.
Either you care about everyone, or you don’t care about anyone. You can’t pick and choose with your humanity. Oh wait - According to your book alone, you can.
Sorry, man, but I don’t need a boook to know what to do. Unlike in your silly-assed churches where all you do is sing, praise, tell God how great He is… Well, you know what? I think He fucking knows that!
I spend my time listening to Him. Reading all of the texts He has imspired man to write about Him. Not just the ones that you do. And by doing this, I feel I will get to know more about God than you or any like you ever will.
Yer putz,
Satan :wally
TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Two months, two weeks, two days, 19 hours, 29 minutes and 3 seconds.
3112 cigarettes not smoked, saving $389.06.
Life saved: 1 week, 3 days, 19 hours, 20 minutes.
FriendofPettyHomicidalDictator said:
I’m sure it does. I’m sure you cannot fathom how anybody could make the comparison I did. I’m sure it will have absolutely no effect on your belief. I’m also sure that it is dead-on 100% accurate, per your own descriptions. But you’ve got your God shield up, so nothing is going to get through to you.
The problem is that a number of Christians here have told you that they do not believe the same way you do. Why do you suppose that is? I would guess you figure that you’re right and they’re wrong. But did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, they use a bit of logic? I haven’t taken one thing out of context – if you think I have, I challenge you to prove it. I’ve used your own words to show what kind of deity you worship – and I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near him.
Yeah, he’s so perfect and totally good that he tortures people for eternity if they don’t bow down to him in exactly the right way. What a swell guy!
Oh, I realize it. I’ve seen your kind before. I just still can’t understand how somebody willingly abandons the ability to think.
I doubt you know how to handle disbelief. But you did get me to laugh at your comment about a “strong reaction.” Hooo-boy, if you think that’s a strong reaction, I urge you to visit the BBQ Pit. 
The problem with your situation is that “just and fair,” and “always loving” and “never abused his authority” does not describe your God. Your God is not always loving, as he often tortures people for an eternity. Your God is not just and fair, as he abuses his authority to cause pain to people whose only transgression was to not bow down to him in the right way. Your God does abuse his authority by doing all of the things I have discussed here. As I have explained, he is nothing more than a murderous petty dictator.
ROFL! Yeah, I’m holding my breath for that one.
Again, if you think that was jumping all over me, please, please, please visit the Pit.
And here I thought God was in charge. You know, the supreme being. Numero uno. The big cheese. Etc. But now you are saying that he isn’t all-powerful. That Satan can override him. Hmmmm. Interesting. So thank God for all the good, but blame somebody else for all the bad. As the church lady used to say, how conveeeeenient.
my85car said:
Ya know, this area is called “Great Debates.” Did you really think you could just preach to the choir here? Sorry, this ain’t LBMB.
Perhaps you could cite one of these supposed “flames” that you keep complaining about. Until SuaSponte posted the message after this one, I haven’t noticed anything.
You haven’t explained what you consider a flame, but I’m guessing it’s a lot different from what everybody else considers one.
Gosh! Thanks!
Your entire life, which, if we’re right, is all you get. You lose the whole game because you followed a fantasy. Whoops!
If your beliefs are right, then I don’t want to spend one minute with the petty homicidal dictator you believe in, so I haven’t lost anything at all.
Our Satan said:
Don’t forget, it also says the Earth is flat.
Well, that’s a sig file waiting to happen…
How much you wanna bet the putz don’t even know what you just said, huh? :rolleyes:
Oh, and David? I used putz not in a derogatory way, but in honor of Wally. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it, and I know Wally would approve…
Yer putz,
Satan :wally
TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Two months, two weeks, two days, 19 hours, 44 minutes and 10 seconds.
3112 cigarettes not smoked, saving $389.11.
Life saved: 1 week, 3 days, 19 hours, 20 minutes.
Good God man! “Other”? Other? What were you thinking? Buddism! There are seven million of us!
I really feel disrespected by your use of quotes.
Do you honestly think that you picked the one true religion? The one true religion might be a cult in Northern California worshipping their potato god. And their way might be the true way to salvation. Ever stop to think about that? Or would it be too “doubting” of your “religion”?
my85car
Just no pleasing some people is there? If you read my last 2 posts you will see first that I objected to this thread turning into an ugly debacle. And then having to clarify myself to SuaSponte because he assumed if I wasn’t offensive I must be supportive. Don’t lump everyone who doesn’t share your beliefs into some flaming anti-Christian coalition. I am not a Christian, I have no intention of becoming a Christian, but I am a fair person and I don’t like pointless conflict. Go in peace my friend, but don’t stereotype every non-Christian.
I have yet to get a straight answer for the point I’m about to make from my extremely Christian mother. I doubt I will here, either, but what the hell.
FriendofGod said:
[QUOTE]
God is not the only supernatural being at work in the world at large. To paraphrase a famous Christian quote, “Satan hates you and has a horrible plan for your life!”
[QUOTE]
There’s a slight problem here. God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent–it says so right on the lable. He is also supposedly the creator of everything, is He not? Then by definition He created Satan. (He of hell, not he of the messageboard–I assume the latter was created in the usual way. Perhaps when Johnny had a guest host, depending on when it was.)
Now, as I see it, if God created Satan there are only two possiblities.
(1) God did not know how much of a problem child Satan was going to be, and couldn’t do much about it. God is therefore not directly responsible for the works of Satan…but you can throw all that “omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent” crap out the window. You can then toss your Bible after it, since it’s obviously a bunch of propaganda–like the Wizard of Oz, we have a little guy trying to look bigger than he really is. (Except I don’t recall the Wizard getting his panties in a bunch if everyone didn’t kiss his little ass regularly, which is what God supposedly does.)
(2) God is in fact omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent…which means He wanted Satan to do exactly what Satan has done. Which means God wanted the world full of misery and confusion and sin, which further means God is a vicious sadistic jackass who likes torturing His creations in a twisted little game. This would make God considerably worse than Hitler/Stalin/et al–they would just be His tools, fulfilling His wishes. (Under this view, one can perhaps believe the old Oral Roberts claim that God was gonna call him home if he didn’t raise however many millions of dollars–a little blackmail and murder would be no big deal.)
And you want me to have a “personal relationship” with God as you postulate Him? Hell, I wouldn’t even let Him in my house, let alone socialize with the mean little wanker.
OK, I’d like to make a couple points. But realize that the internet filter here at work where I can read this has cut off the thread, so I’m not aware of everything that’s been said here. So I’m sure that I also won’t be able to even see my own post, or reply to anything said in response to it. Sorry. Plus, I can’t read all of this anyway. How do you people find the time?
A couple of things have been said that I’ve thought about a lot.
“Christians”: I think everything about the Bible and God and the universe is up for discussion. I really can’t stand the “God said it and I believe it and that settles it” bumper sticker.
Now, let me explain. I’m not just letting my brains leak out. What I’m saying is that the unexamined belief system runs an extremely high risk of being just wack-o. When the Bible is not examined, we get things like, “No, God really created all the universe in the span of 144 hours.” When Jesus is unexamined, we get any manner of gibberish about what he would or wouldn’t do or say about whatever. When the church is unexamined, we get Jim Jones.
EVERYTHING is up for discussion. Is Jesus God? Let’s all make really sure it’s true, and for good reasons, or else, as Paul said, this is all an incredible waste of time. (Note to non-Christians here: Unlike some of you, I would accept personal/spiritual revelation as having some kind of weight in making the decision.)
Non-christians: The way I’ve come to think of the workings of the universe (I’d actually like feedback, but you’d have to email me directly, because of the reasons stated above):
God has created little “gods” in humans. I think that’s what the Bible means by “in His image.” We can reason, have an eternal spiritual nature, and even have the ability to at least participate in creating more of these creatures.
A “by-product” of all this is that we have sole and eternal control of our own souls. During our lives we make choices about what we’re going to do and think. I really do think there is a force pushing us to oppose the good.
Here’s where I’m guessing I’ll lose even more of you. The “act” of not aligning yourself with Jesus (supposing you’ve heard of Him) is by default aligning yourself with the other. Having an eternal nature, you are making a choice with more consequences than you might realize.
What happens to all those people who “didn’t have a chance to make a choice?” I don’t know. And anyone who tells you they do, is lying. It’s not possible to know exactly. I have a guess; that it’s like Aslan in The Last Battle; (something like) “I take your service to Tash as service to me.” Note that the man he was saying it to was serving Tash out of the best motives and not involved in being a jerk in the name of religion.
Why did God set up this system? Unknowable. Except that it has been noted by many people that you can’t have a real relationship with someone who is forced (by force or by lack of ability to choose) to like you and take your advice.
Is this system worth all the pain and trouble that’s involved? Again, unknowable. I will presume so, though at best it must be a close call.
I guess I should quit now, but I just wanted to make these points, and the point that not all of us Christians have deliberately switched off our brains. Believe me, I’ve had raging arguments with people in my church who would like to just believe stuff because they’ve been told it, and because it’s easier. But as I said, their act of avoiding the examining only lets them believe a lot of crap. I don’t want easy, I want truth.
Well, he’s not That bad…
Personally, I have wondered about the fact that someone, say Ted Bundy can committ horrible crimes, and then “supposedly” get saved and boom, he’s ready for Heaven.
I believe that the greatest commandment is Love God and your neighbor with all your heart.
So if someone does that, then they ARE a christian, without anyone ever “witnessing” to them.
I don’t have all the answers, no one does.
But I have my beleifs, and I love Jesus and what He stood for. I don’t witness to people; in fact, if anyone asked me, I’d tell them what I believe, but I think its ridiculous to accost a stranger with the gospel.
Okay, David hows that?
poster hat: OFF
I worry about a Supreme Being who is not capable of determining who is a “good” person on a case by case basis.
Putting an arbitrary filter into the process to weed out the 99% of humanity who do (did) not approach Him in the same was as American Fundamentalist Protestants must cut way down on His case-load.
[/sarcasm]
So, ** my85car ** does this mean I don’t get an answer to my question about Mordechai and Esther?
**
I did no flaming of you sir. I simply asked questions.
Zev Steinhardt
Ok, this settles it, I read it in an old book that many people believe and can’t be contradicted:
There: my book says that your book is right and wrong, at the same time. The logic is ireffutable.
pinqy
I’m a little dismayed by the number of people posting to this thread who believe that God is vindictive and mean.
May I try to explain my understanding of the situation?
God is perfect and righteous. Man is imperfect and unrighteous. By punishing the wicked, God is not being sadistic, but merely just. “The wages of sin is death.” Therefore, it is right that sinners be punished in this way.
“Grace”, on the other hand, is unmerited favor. We do not deserve it, whether we are WASPs, Hindus or whatever. God’s grace was extended to man through the redeeming sacrifice of Christ, His son. It is a gift from God, free to anyone willing to accept it. You don’t earn it, but once it is received, the recipient should feel the obligation to live a life worthy of that gift, lest it be cheapened and dishonored.
Good works are fine – they are encouraged in the Christian life, as they are fruits of the Holy Spirit. But they are by-products, not ends unto themselves, and not the route of reconciling us to God.
As I said in my earlier post, this is what I believe. I also believe that the Bible is clear that there are no other options, and the choice must be made.
I also have no problem with anyone who disagrees with me. You’re perfectly free to do so. My purpose is to try to shed light on what I believe and why, not to sway others to my way of thinking. By being as honest and forthcoming as I know how to be, I feel I’m honoring God and my faith. By not being as pushy as some, I feel I’m honoring the free will and right to dissent of the others on this MB.
Well well well . . .
My85car, I am so disappointed. I put to you Biblical arguements about your stance, and you just cop out. However, I am not surprised. I put down at least 4 topics to discuss and you just give up. Too logical for you?
How about FriendofGod? Care to pick up the slack here? Care to answer to the posts I put up?
How about this:
Again, I’ll refer to Judaism, since Christianity supposedly came out of it. Satan is merely an agent of God, not some rebel angel cast out of heaven. That story is yet another misinterpretaion of Christianity (the OT scripture you are bound to quote actually refers to a babylonian king). There is no biblical story of Satan being cast out of heaven, the epidamy (I can’t spell it either) of evil, or a being in competion against God for souls. Show me where it says this in the bible? I’m sure zev or myself can tell you just how flawed your theology is based here.
One or the other, pick one you’d like to respond to. OR both if you are feeling daring. I’ll be patient and wait . . .
my85car wrote:
Oh, “we” do far worse than just flame. We debate. We point out the holes in the True Believers’[TM] arguments. And then, we point out the holes in the arguments they used for patching the holes in their arguments.
The flamage usually only comes out when a True Believer[TM] ignores our counterarguments and says the same damn thing that was already said earlier in the thread and has already received a counterargument with no response.
Like this little gem from FriendofGod, f’rinstance:
You know, I think I’ve just come up with the perfect counterargument for Pascal’s Wager:
If there is an afterlife that acts as a continuance of your life here on Earth, but you live your life as though there is no afterlife, you will have wasted nothing. But if there is no afterlife and you live your life as though there is an afterlife, you will have wasted your entire life preparing for something that never comes.
Hmmm … maybe this is the Secret Hidden Message of Waiting For Godot…