For Those Who Believe Homosexuality Is Wrong: What Should Homosexuals Do?

Great Debates
21

**His4Ever wrote;

But, it’s my belief that a person who is a homosexual and considers themselves a Christian should live a celibate lifestyle just as I believe a single Christian person should live a celibate lifestyle.**

I don’t quite understand this, why are Christians and (supposedly the J/C/I God) so hung up about having sex with the right person. Does it really matter THAT much? If it does matter that much, please explain it to me because I’m not getting it.

To propose an answer, I think the real reason isn’t so much about sex as it is about inheritance of property. If either spouse has sex outside of their marriage, there’s a chance that offspring will result and that offspring could make a valid claim to inheritance of the family property.

So, by restricting sexual relations to being only valid within a married relationship, you’re limiting the chances of a property dispute.

Which is okay if you’re tribe of people with the technological capability of the Roman Empire (or earlier). I think it makes little sense to us in the 21st century.

22

Inheritance of property might have something to do with it, but I think that it’s also the idea that there’s something almost sacred about the sexual act. Remember, for Jews and Christians, and I’m not sure about Muslims, G-d’s first commandment was “Be fruitful, and multiply”. There’s something sacred about sex and reproduction, and the idea is that the sexual act is, or should be, a physical sign for the love a man and woman have for each other. So the idea is, if someone casually has sex; if they just have sex to satisfy physical desire, they’re abusing the main purpose of sex, which is to celebrate and represent the relationship that the couple has for each other. There’s also the idea that, because sex is so intimately tied up with relationship, it should be within the context of marriage. The idea is that if you aren’t ready to commit to spend the rest of your life with a person and share everything with him or her, you’re not ready to have sex with them, because, as I mentioned, sex is the celebration of that commitment and shared life.

23

Well now that we’ve been quite fruitful and have done damn well to multiply (I wager our current population would boggle the mind of the person who wrote down Genesis) and can multiply without sex what are we to do?

If all sex is a sin save for reproductive purposes can anyone have moral sex anymore? After all what they are doing can be avoided with technology. Surely God would be pleased if we adhered fully to celebacy (even if we needed a bit of chemical aid now and again) and just used technology to keep the population up.

If sex is still OK even though the function can be replicated without the act why is it not OK for gay people to have sex?

As an added tangental question to those who believe that gay should change if a method was developed that could control orientation would it be ethical to force gays to undergo it so that they were no longer damned?
For the record I’m really not concerned at all about what consenting adults do with each other. It is their decision and the only people who it should matter to are those involved. No being, no matter how powerful, has any business dictating to them how to love or how to express that love.

24

As I sit here typing, my boyfriend is falling asleep in the next room. I can hear him starting to snore gently. I’d normally be in there with him, drifting off, but I had a hard day, and I’m not looking forward to trying to sleep.

This evening, he was there for me. He hugged me, he told me we were going to be all right. He let me know that he loves me, whatever happens to us. He made me laugh. He reassured me. He loved me.

If I could never have sex with this man again, I would still stay with him for life. If all we could do was hold hands, I’d hold his hand, and I’d make his life as happy as I possibly could. I would spend my life bringing joy to him however I can, and it would be a privilege to do so. I love him.

I know it’s hard for some people to grasp, but it’s not about the sex. The sex is the icing on the cake, the wonderful way in which we show each other just how attracted we are to one another, the best way we know to make each other feel whole, and loved, and happy.

But that’s just a culmination of how we make each other feel the rest of the time.

I just simply love him.

To those who would have us remain apart, alone, ashamed, I wish you this: I wish you love.

The kind of love that’s undeniable, unreasoning, unending. The kind of love that goes against your better judgement, that flies in the face of reason, that throws safety to the winds and makes you worry for your sanity; the sort that you never, ever thought you would succumb to. I wish it would change your whole world in an instant, throw aside everything you ever thought love was like, and leave you gasping and in awe, for the rest of your life.

Then you might understand what it is to ask us to give each other up.

25

Unless the unfortunate homosexual happens to run afoul of a group of violent homophobes, but maybe that is the disease.

26

Actually, RexDart, I wasn’t looking for a specific answer. I don’t believe homosexuality is a sin, so what I was looking for was a better understanding of the other point of view.

Having been celibate for years, I don’t have a problem with it. In fact I’m in favor of it when having an ethical sex life is not a possibility. Then again, my impression is that some people consider being homosexual to be sinful, as opposed to committing homosexual acts. I suspect those people would be also be opposed to a same sex couple living together lovingly but celibately, but I could be wrong.

As far as the priesthood goes, I read something in the paper last week about “a Vatican official” discouraging homosexuals from entering the ministry and the Catholic church as a whole doesn’t seem to be entirely in favor of it. Also, it’s my understanding that some of the more conservative Protestant churches don’t allow homosexuals or women to become ministers, which means, if you’re lesbian, you’ve got two reasons to be excluded.

Gobear, I’m sorry the question’s bringing you down, but it’s one that’s been troubling me and I had to ask it.
Mr. Visible, that was beautiful.

CJ

27

Although I disagree with the gist of her point, I feel compelled to point out that His4ever has made progress. She at least measured her response in a deliberate attempt to be gentle with what she knew could be construed as offensive.

That said, I should point out to her that those things Paul wrote, he wrote “as a concession, not as a command”.

I think that people who obsess over homosexuality to her extent harbor a misconception that there is some heirarchy of sin, and that homosexuality is at the top. I think that she is afraid to say, “I won’t condemn what you do,” because she thinks that God would condemn her for saying it.

And yet, she was told plainly that, by what whatever measure she judges, so will she be judged. Were I she, I would far more greatly fear saying, “I condemn what you do,” knowing that I do no better, and therefore stand condemned.

28

I know it’s a tough job, but I’ll volunteer to be the woman they have sex with. Hey, somebody’s gotta do it . . .

29

Turing was convicted of performing “unnatuaral” (homosexual) acts, and NOT of being a homosexual.

Turing “elected” to have the “treatment” as part of his sentence.

Citation please if you want to link this directly with his suicide (I’m sure it added to his general pissed-offness).

I don’t know why I’m reading this thread, it isn’t going to make me feel any happier.

30

**I’m not sure how big a heap of difference that makes in practical terms.

**The only alternative on offer being a two-year prison sentence.

We can’t see into somebody else’s mind, but the consensus seems to be that he was deeply humiliated and depressed about the way he had been treated and that this was at least a very significant contributory factor in his demise.

31

Anyone ever see “But I’m a Cheerleader?” Great movie. This girl’s parents, friends, and boyfriend accuse her of being a lesbian (at that point, she considers herself straight and wants to be normal), and her parents send her off to this boarding house place where this really uptight bible-thumper lady tried to “straighten out” homosexual teenagers. It’s intended to be funny, and the woman puts all the teenagers through extreme gender role exercises (football for the boys, cleaning for the girls). Some of the teenagers conform and want to be straight, but others rebel, form relationships, sneak out to gay clubs, etc. Of course, at the end, the main character realizes she IS a lesbian, gets kicked out of the institution, isn’t welcome at home, seeks help from some other “dropouts,” and gets the girl.

Moral? You can’t do anything about sexual orientation, and the more you confine it, the stronger it gets.

That’s what I have to say. There’s also something incredibly hilarious about RuPaul as a man wearing a “straight is great” shirt.

32

Anyone ever see “But I’m a Cheerleader?” Great movie. This girl’s parents, friends, and boyfriend accuse her of being a lesbian (at that point, she considers herself straight and wants to be normal), and her parents send her off to this boarding house place where this really uptight bible-thumper lady tried to “straighten out” homosexual teenagers. It’s intended to be funny, and the woman puts all the teenagers through extreme gender role exercises (football for the boys, cleaning for the girls). Some of the teenagers conform and want to be straight, but others rebel, form relationships, sneak out to gay clubs, etc. Of course, at the end, the main character realizes she IS a lesbian, gets kicked out of the institution, isn’t welcome at home, seeks help from some other “dropouts,” and gets the girl.

Moral? You can’t do anything about sexual orientation, and the more you confine it, the stronger it gets.

That’s what I have to say. There’s also something incredibly hilarious about RuPaul as a man wearing a “straight is great” shirt.

33

Well, sure. Hate the sin and love the sinner. Were those laws just or unjust?

If mugged at gunpoint someday, I’ll probably “elect” to hand over my wallet.

Well, my timelens telepathy machine is on the fritz, I’m afraid. I do concede that I hadn’t adequately considered the possibility that being treated as a criminal by the “free” world that he arguably played a large part in saving (being one of the minds behind the Enigma codebreakers in WWII and all) was actually one of his few remaining shreds of happiness and something that gave his life meaning. I’ll stop and consider that now.

Hmm.

Naw. Direct-linking citelessness aside, I’m still going to have to weigh on the side that being convicted as a criminal based on what he did in the sack with other consenting adults–said initial arrest being sparked when he was trying to report some thievery by an ill-fated choice of one of those particular adults, assumably because arresting the gay guy standing right there was easier than actually tracking down a thief–offered the “choice” between prison and being shot up full of hormones, and whatnot, probably didn’t do his mental health enormous amounts of good. A stretch though it may be.

To be fair, his mother apparently believed his death was just an accident, the apple having been accidentally laced with cyanide, and perhaps she was right.

Luckily for many, unhappiness isn’t usually considered to be an abomination or otherwise wrong, so that’s something to breathe easy about.

34

Waitaminute…Women? The cure for homosexuality is to seek multiple partners of the opposite sex?

35

I’ll jump in.

Ah, ah - remember, even the Catholic Church says that, for the most part, homosexual men and women do not have a choice in their orientation, but they do have a choice on how they act on it (i.e., “it’s ok to be gay, just don’t do those gay things”)

So the options are (a) be celibate; (b) lie and marry someone of the opposite sex despite continued homosexual feelings; or © use members of the opposite sex as sex objects since that is the only acceptable alternative to celibacy.

At least, that’s what I got out of that.

Huh.

With 20 more years of medical and psychological experience, not only has no other effective method been devised to change someone’s sexual orientation, but they have also not put it back on the list of mental disorders. We are more enlightened now, not less.

Indeed - no good complaining about something without an answer to solve it. (Thus far, as noted, none has been found, but that doesn’t seem to stop people from complaining. A profound lack of understanding of the subject matter at hand seems to seriously impede the efforts of those “against” homosexuality, which, to quote one of matt_mcl’s favorite quotes, seems to be about as justified as being “against” rain.)

So, again, it’s either celibacy, lie, or use someone as a sex object. The other clear message I get from that is that appearances far outweigh the truth - it is better to look heterosexual than to feel heterosexual (“and darling, you look marvelous…”).

Huh.

So if you don’t love the other person, it doesn’t seem to matter - get married and have sex with them anyway, 'cause that’s what God wants.

Huh.

agentfroot, But I’m A Cheerleader was a hysterical movie. RuPaul out of drag is scary! :eek:

Esprix

36

For the record…I don’t believe homosexual sex is wrong as long as there are only consenting partners involved.

But assuming homosexuality is wrong due to social taboo, The Bible, or whatever…then I say a homosexual has three options:

  1. Abstain from sex altogether.

  2. Have sex with member(s) of the opposite sex (once again, as long as there are only consenting partners involved)

  3. (Hi Opal) Have a sex change operation and then proceed to option # 2).

I don’t recall reading any anti-sex change operation passages in The Bible.

Just curious…His4Ever, do you have any moral objection to gender alteration?

37

Well, no, I think you have what I was saying backwards. Sex is supposed to be a reflection of love, and if you don’t love the person, don’t have sex with them.

38

It wouldn’t be a party without you :slight_smile:

Well, that’s how he said it. I don’t exactly know if a gay man having sex with a woman is really using her as a sex object, he might have a very loving platonic relationship with her, raise a family, and provide sexual service as an act of selflessness. That doesn’t seem like using a person, that seems like giving for another. It’s not my assertion that the gay man should be forced to these choices, I’m just saying the latter of your trichotomy isn’t quite as dastardly as you made it seem, at least not necessarily in all cases.

I speculate, and I didn’t go this far in the conversation to ask, that the fundie evangelical Christians would say that it would indeed have the possibility of being love. On a certain level, I agree. There can be love without sexual attraction, obviously. A marriage of that sort need not be loveless necessarily.

Personally, I wouldn’t want to force that kind of choice on someone, as I said that’s the point of having this discussion, to make people realize how unfair that is. Still, I wouldn’t say it is necessarily bad for a gay person to decide to live those ways. Many people with heterosexual attractions actually never engage in the acts associated with that attraction, remaining celibate, and I wouldn’t be the one to say their lives are worse off. There is also an appeal to a loving partnership of a non-sexual nature. These things are not so bad, IMHO, though I of course oppose forcing such limited choices upon people.

39

Originally posted by Brutus

Given the advances in medicine and whatnot, perhaps there would be
more succuess this time around.

Then (someone else) said:
With 20 more years of medical and psychological experience, not only has no other effective method been devised to change someone’s sexual orientation, but they have also not put it back on the list of mental disorders. We are more enlightened now, not less.

Well, I have a couple opinions regarding this subject. One is that I hear many, if not most, gay people say they wouldn’t change their orientation even if they could (and why should they?).

Two, maybe if there is a god, he doesn’t want the gay people to become straight people. I mean, (assuming for the purpose of this argument that there IS a higher power that can “do” stuff) he’s allowed transsexuals the opportunity to find happiness in the correct body. Maybe he just knows that gay is fine and that’s why we don’t see reassigned orientation. Ever think of that, fundies?

40

Er, did one of us read the thread subject wrong? Really, there are people “out there” who to this day think, for instance, that it is proper for homosexuals to remain celibate – and those are the liberal homophobes.

Still, not the same as being obliged. I believe such chemical “treatments” are still “offered” to sex offenders in many countries, the US and the UK included, my, how we have advanced!

Maybe I read too much into Drastic’s post, because I agree with you here, but strangely not him there. Oh I see --they’re two different things.

Unimaginably unjust.

For the record, I don’t mind homophobes, as they say, just so long as they do what they do behind closed doors and don’t expect me to read about it.

I was right, I am no happier.