I suppose I could anticipate the short answer, which might be “leave me alone”, and that’s fine, as far as it goes, however…
We live in an unbalanced and unfair world, some (perhaps much) of this is perpetuated by Christians and their organisations.
What do you want/expect me to do about that? If I disassociate myself from them, then how can I do anything to change it?, if I stay, will you take that as tacit approval on my part, anyway, what can I do about it all?
(given that I feel I cannot wilfully abandon my beliefs)
This is a question that’s bothered me since shortly after I joined these boards. I’d like to tack onto Mangetout’s question: what do you want from me, in light of my beliefs?
I realize this will vary from Christian to Christian. If it helps, I’m a Catholic who pretty much follows the magisterium.
There are gay people who are religious. Being Christian doesn’t in and of itself somehow make you “anti-gay.” So, IMO, no gay person should condemn you just for belonging to the church of your choice.
I don’t even mind if someone wishes to debate me on the morality of homosexuality, or if they tell me I’m immoral for being homosexual. That’s their opinion, so be it.
What irks me is when people attempt to inflict their religious beliefs on me using the legal system (such as prohibiting gay marriage) or when they try to use legal or extra-legal means to cause harm to someone just because they are gay. Some people use a religious justification for these actions, and to me, your right to religion stops where my rights begin.
Gay marriage should be possible in all fifty states. Gays should be able to adopt children (someone who really has to think about whether or not they want kids will be a good parent). Simple enough. And, of course, the same job opportunities as if they were straight.
Considering that we don’t live in a theocracy, it is very frustrating that Christianity’s prejudice against gays keeps them from living normal lives.
Ariadne, you posted:
“Christianity’s prejudice against gays keeps them from living normal lives.”
If a Christian is really a Christian, he/she must condemn homosexuality because the Bible strongly condemns it. It isn’t a prejudice. I have no prejudice against homosexuals, and I am a Christian. However, I must condemn the acts done by homosexuals because the Bible condemns it.
It would be nice, if you could remind some of your more strident brethren (male and female) that while there may be support in Scripture for their views of homosexuality, their viewpoint is certainly not the only one. Moderate to liberal views of homosexuality are as equally supported by Scripture.
What bothers me most is not that Fundamentalist viewpoint, but often the silence of the Moderate and Liberal Christians, especially on the national level.
Do you follow all of Leviticus? Do you actually follow all the contradictory rules in the Bible?
Anyway, it doesn’t matter what you condemn or don’t, why is your religion affecting laws that other people live by? Gays simply want the right to marry (with all the inheritance rights, insurance benefits, etc.) that goes with it. The Supreme Court has said that marriage is a fundamental human right, but that doesn’t seem to apply to gays because of Christian prejudice. Go to your church and condemn whatever you like, but keep your religion out of the government that we all must live under.
You can’t possibly follow every single decree written in the Bible, so you must choose to follow this one just as you pick and choose from the others.
Did Jesus ever condemn homosexuality? I thought Christians were supposed to follow the New Testament, which superceded the Old Testament. So, why does it matter what the laws were in the OT, and moreover why, as others have asked, do you choose to only follow some of those OT rules?
I don’t have to follow all of the commandments. The Law of Moses does not apply to people today. Yahshua (Jesus) fulfilled the Law of Moses when he died on the cross. The Hebrew Bible does not apply to me.
I live under the Law of Christ. Certainly, I sin, but I don’t pick and choose what to obey. I do the best I can, and God’s grace will cover my sins. But if I rebel against God - homosexuality is rebellion - then His grace will not cover my sins.
I don’t care if homosexuals marry. I’ve never tried to stop it, and I never will. It is rebellion against God, but we have free-will. We can choose to rebel. Use your free-will and marry. I could care less.
Pardon the spelling. I am too tired to check it.
1986 Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, from http://www.dignityusa.org/1986doctrine/ratzinger.html
“to which no one has any conceivable right.” Right there is the problem with most Catholics (and most religious folk, for that matter). Just because the Catholics believe a practice is against God’s will, doesn’t mean they should go out and try to push legislation on NON-Catholics to get their agenda across. If they can brainwash their own to act a certain way, more power to them. However, once you start trying to push beliefs on everyone else, I have a problem.
The farther you go down the road, the worse it becomes. First you outlaw homosexuality because it is against God’s will. Then you outlaw contraceptives, because it is against God’s will. Then outlaw working on Sundays, because it is against God’s will. Then outlaw people belonging to other religions, because it is against God’s will. Finally, you just set the Church up as the central government and make God’s will the law of the land. Very scary to us non-Christians.
So, what can a Christian do about it? Perhaps try to impress on the leadership of the various organizations that “God’s law” cannot be man’s law, and any attempt to legislate “God’s law” is misguided. We live in a pluralistic society, and attempting to prohibit actions by legislation based soley on religious teachings is wrong.
I am a lazy man, so I’m simply going to quote from another post of mine along a similar vein and then elaborate.
If you insist, in spite of this, to view homosexuality as immoral, I would want one thing from you: Equality.
I can be different from you and be your peer, and I demand the same rights as you would receive. We have all, gay/straight/bi/queer, been endowed with the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Do not attempt, though amendments, laws, and courts, to restrict my happiness or liberty.
I have the right to search for, and hopefully find, love where I wish it. I have the right to consumate that love physically without legal barriers. I, and whomever I love, have the right to protection from discrimination simply because we love eachother. We should have access to the same rights heterosexual commited couples receive (hospital access, next-of-kin status, tax deductions, etc).
In short, we can only enforce our own morals on one person: ourselves. To do anything else is not just, nor is it very Christian at all. Christ, from all I’ve read, never advocated use of law and force to change another’s view, only providing a loving example others may choose to follow. Live like Christ, not like Falwell.
Actually, the U.S. Supreme Court has held that this can legitimately done…well, the first half of it, anyway. The state can exercise its police power to limit commerce and labor in order to ensure a uniform day of rest. (See McGowan v. Maryland, 366 U.S. 420 (1961).) If this were done to ensure religious worship, you’ve violated the Establishment Clause, but if it’s done for the protection of persons, it’s ok.
Now, if I’m a Christian legislator, can I push for Sunday closing legislation on this basis, knowing that the law would coincide with my understanding of God’s will? (And I would point out: the Sunday work prohibition is, in part, understood to be based on the fact that man needs a day off.)
Nah. The Catholic Church pushes for religious liberty. I don’t have a cite handy, but I’ll be happy to track one down if someone doesn’t do it for me first.
Absolutely.
There is a difference between what is moral and what should be legal. You can, in your own belief, believe that homosexuality is wrong. However, to say that two men cannot enter into a legally binding contract with each other, merely because you believe it is immoral, is wrong.
Equal treatment under the law is all that your average queer wants. Not “special treatment”. Just stuff like being able to go and see their partner in hospital if they’ve had an accident, that kind of thing. Or to be able to get the tax breaks that married people get if they’re living with a life partner.
And don’t stand outside places that support these rights and yell “God hates fags.” Believe that queers are dirty sinners if you want. Preach it from your pulpits if you feel you must. But the evil homosexual liberal conspiracy isn’t going to come and shout “Judy Garland hates Bible Bashers,” and, more to the point, wouldn’t expect this to have any effect.
I’m not accusing anyone here of doing this, but I’m just saying that it’s among the things desired.
I think homosexuals should expect from Christians to be treated like anyone else. Gay couples should have the same respect, affirmation, legitimacy and rights as any heterosexual couple. My church is a Reconciling in Christ congregation and welcomes all believers to commune with us regardless of sexual orientation.
Oh, and rather OT I admit, about the word “partner”
It can burn as far as I’m concerned. It sounds more like we’re founding a business instead of a relationship, and drives me up a wall. Its just so… sterile.
It is my personal opinion that being husband or wife to another person, regardless of gender, is about spiritual binding, not about legalities. If two people truly feel they are married to eachother, then they are in the true sense. Ceremonies and paperwork are just recognition of that one fact. If I find someone who I see for a long period of time, if we’ve moved in together and feel like every other married couple, he’s my husband and forget the technicalities of it.
Well, friend, IMHO, if you’re living under the Law of Christ, as I am, then you are honorbound to obey, first and foremost, the two commandments He held up as encapsuling all the others.
And I’d have to differ with you: “homosexuality” means a bunch of different things, but when someone says, “I’m gay,” he or she is not saying, “I choose to have sexual relations with people of my own sex” but rather “I’m attracted, sexually and romantically, to those people, and that’s something built into me that I have no capacity in myself to change.” That’s no more “rebelling against God” than having a quick temper is rebelling against God. It’s what you do with it – the sexuality and the temper – that is sin or not.
Mangetout, I can give you an answer, straight from the Bible, on the part of your OP question that’s one-on-one: Micah 6:8, Matthew7:1-5, 22:34-40 and 25:31-46, and I Corinthians 13. For the other half, I’ll have to refer you to Martin Niemoeller, and I’m reasonably certain you’re familiar with what he said.
Practically, don’t let the haters-in-Christ get away with anything; be quick to question why they take the stance they do. Contribute as you’re able to campaigns that seek to advance them – though I rarely have much disposable income, I try to give a little something to HRC as I can. Find out what your church’s group supporting the affirmation and welcoming of gay people is, join it, and use its resources to make a little noise.
I thought of picking on Freyr’s comment about silence – but he’s right – one Fred Phelps or Jerry Falwell drowns out a hundred of me and you, as far as newsworthiness goes. That’s disgusting, but it’s life.
But all I can do is to try to move the lake over into the dry valley, one drop at a time. And someday, if enough of us carry enough buckets long enough, the valley will be full of water and the lakebed dry.
The Church used to allow same-sex marriages and had gay saints. If the Church allowed it in the past, it can allow it in the future.
I am non-heterosexual and a Christian.
I totally agree Priam. I have “boyfriends,” not partners. And I’m going to marry my husband, not my “life-mate.”