Ahh I forgot about the ever-popular “life-mate”. Sounds more like a Discovery Channel special than love, no?
“And here we see the wild wolf defending its lair and lifemate. Watch as it…” well anyway you get the picture.
And to clarify my first post in this thread, I consider myself a “Catholic-in-exile”. I refuse to support or worship in a church which degrades me and my relationships, but I would return if that did change.
How is homosexuality a rebellion against God? Where does the Bible–Old or New Testament–say this? I mean, there’s Leviticus and all but you just said Leviticus no longer applies. Do you mean to say that while the actual words no longer apply to us because of Christ, the spirit behind them are still wholly applicable? If as a Christian you’re tossing out the Laws of Moses, I don’t see how you have anything to cite when it comes to sin except those things Jesus specifically rails against, and homosexuality isn’t among them.
As for the rest of your statements, I appreciate them. Homosexuals should not (and to my knowledge, usually do not) expect to have the right of a Church wedding; the rules of churches on such matters should not be interfered with by the government. Likewise Christians or any other religious denomination should have no business trying to interfere with the secular rights of adults.
What church use to allow it?
RCC, allegedly.
To say any church, as we know of them today, once allowed same-sex unions is a misnomer. During the first few centuries of existence, the Universal Catholic church (not Roman Catholic, which did not precisely exist) did construct and use same sex commitment ceremonies. Much of the current heterosexual marriage ceremony seems to be based on this, because weddings at that time were viewed as contracts between families and not love affairs, thus requiring a different format than we would accept today.
It’s interesting that you put the question in the OP in terms of both what I want and what I expect from Christians, Mangetout. Let me answer as to the expectations, first.
Currently, many religions are engaged in a campaign to influence the nation’s laws so that my boyfriend and I remain second-class citizens. Such behavior is inexcusable by any moral code. I expect this to stop.
That’s all I expect.
But then… then there’s the question of what I want from religious people. And that’s what gets me in trouble.
Because what I want from religious people is for you to admit that you’ve been wrong. For you to recognize that the love that my boyfriend and I share is no better or worse than what heterosexual couples share. For you to realize that a few easily misinterpreted passages in a several-hundred-page oft-translated book are building a wall between you and us; a wall that never had to exist.
I want you to understand that my need for love is as great as your own. I want you to acknowledge that an increase in the amount of honest love in the world, no matter how small, is always, always a good thing. I want you to stop treating the love that I share with my boyfriend on the same terms as you’d treat alcoholism or kleptomania, and realize that when we share our lives, we make each other much happier, and harm no-one. And I’d like to see you apply WWJD to that.
I want you to take the same kind of course that you took a few decades back, when interracial marriage was illegal, and the churches were the biggest obstacle against that sort of love being legitimized. I want you to realize the abhorrent nature of what you’re doing, and start working to correct the damage that you’ve done.
Because right now, hundreds of thousands of people are suffering, in large and small ways, because of your misguided conviction that love between two consenting adults can be offensive to God. People have been beaten to death, children have taken guns to themselves, all because the belief that gay people are somehow inferior is planted deep in our culture. And you helped plant it there.
I want to see you take some responsibility for that. I want you to start to work to make things better.
But I don’t expect it.
The underlined emphasis above is mine.
This is the point I’m trying to drive home. Not all Christians agree with this. Yet people like ThoughtPolice are making the implication that they do. The issue is far from settled and may never be settled. Yet people, like ThoughtPolice think they can speak authoratively for all Christians on this point. Just reading through this thread proves otherwise.
Thanks everyone; I realise that it is pretty near impossible to have this discussion without it straying into the debate as to whether God/the Bible condemns homosexuality and that is fine, but there probably isn’t space to explore that in great depth here (maybe it is time for another thread on the topic) - what I was really looking for in starting this thread is the kind of response that MrVisible gave; exactly what can and should I do?
Says who? Matthew 5:17-20 says:
**
Again, says who?
Isn’t this just a case of the true Scotsman fallacy again?
…“Christians believe that homosexuality is wrong, if you disagree, then you can’t be a ‘true’ Christian…”
I don’t agree with MrVisible. You do not have to admit that you are or were wrong. No-one can ask that of you.
However, you should cease speaking about homosexuality. Treat non-straights the exact same way you treat straights. Do work in your church and community to make sure people are treated equally, no matter their sexual orientation. Fight laws that prevent same-sex marriage and gay rights. Recognise that free will is the greatest gift we have, and recognise everybody’s right to use it as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else.
You’re free to believe that all homosexuals will go to hell, if you wish. But settle for that. If you want to save them from that, that is a beautiful thing, but you’ll never succeed. And when we’re all dead, we’ll see who was right.
Basically, I’d like to say “do nothing”. Yep, do nothing. Do nothing that even recognises a difference between straights and gays.
See, here is the crux of the problem; doing nothing (personally) does nothing to prevent the efforts of my well-meaning brethren campaigning to enact anti-gay laws.
beam-eye-splinter?
No, it doesn’t. When I said “do nothing”, I meant “do nothing that recognises a difference between straights and gays”. To do nothing when others try to establish anti-gay laws is to act as if they were trying to establish anti-straight laws. Or anti-human laws. You get the picture.
Gay-marriages is really a tough topic for me. I used to support them, but nowadays I wonder whether the argument of the “second-class citizens”, which MrVisible brought up, really holds true.
After all, the state has an interest to reward men and women getting together in order to reproduce, to put it bluntly. Homosexual relationships obviously cannot fulfill that aspect of a marriage.
While I do recognize that, I could argue that the love for myself is no better or worse than what heterosexual couples share. I cannot marry myself however and I do not feel like a second-class citizen for it. I simply don’t meet the criteria of a marriage and neither do homosexual relationships. That is in no way an oppression of homosexuals or singles though, in my humble opinion.
As for what people should “do”: Why is it so important what other people do in their freetime? Who they love or what god they worship? It should have no impact on my life and it doesn’t. That’s what I would expect: A bit more tollerance when it comes to other people’s lives.
I think so, but in practical terms; someone asks me to sign a petition against allowing homosexual couples to adopt (this is a real example which I posted about a while back) - what should I do? It isn’t just me that they are asking.
Certainly I decline to add my name to such a list, certainly I explain in detail why my conscience will not allow me to sign it, but starting a counter-campaign is tricky and delicate, as it could very easily result in me being sidelined as a heretic (then my voice will not be heard).
Actually, Christ doesn’t condemn homosexuals or homosexuality anywhere in the Bible. In several passages where Paul condemns homosexuality, he also condemns a bunch of other things such as gossip, slander, etc. Christ does condemn divorce, except in the case of adultery, which he also condemns, but I don’t hear an outcry from Christians to make divorce or adultery illegal. As a Christian who does not consider homosexuality to be immoral, I think shows such as Married By America and Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire to be far more damaging to marriage than allowing a friend of mine to marry the man he intends to spend the rest of his life with, yet I haven’t heard any out cry against them.
Fifty years ago, interracial marriage was seen as being against God and was illegal in several states. At the same time, in Hawaii, not only was it legal, it was pretty much the norm. While Hawaii didn’t become a state until 1959, if I recall correctly, that still means the U.S. has already had a period of time when marriages which were legal in one state were illegal in others.
I hope the GLBT members of this community won’t mind if I occaisionally point out this kind of thing to others when it strikes me as appropriate. I’ve noticed that silence can wound, especially when it’s taken to mean agreement. Besides, I never was any good at shutting up! 
CJ
I find it difficult to talk about these matters. I’ve never been a member of a church or denomination and simply cannot understand the social bonds within such an organization, but I do understand that they are very important to the people in these churches. In this case, I think you know best. Don’t sign, explain why you don’t sign. If they wish to debate you, oblige.
Just a thought (I’m really not trying to be belligerent): why would you want to be part of an organization that’ll ostracize you for following your conscience?